Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

We aren't supposed to come away thinking what great things Gideon can do, but what great things God can do. And the frailty of those involved is to encourage us that God can indeed use the weak things of this world to accomplish His purposes.

When Gideon was initially called, he sought a sign as he did not realize he was being called by the angel of the Lord until the angel disappeared. Gideon revealed his faith when he made offering to the Lord at the time of his calling.

And that being the case, He can use us too. Gideon was the worst choice God could make if He was looking for a strong leader. He was the best choice if God wanted to demonstrate His power through another.

Gideon was meek ... Gideon told the angel of the Lord "I am the least in my father's house" when he was called. God works with those who are meek ... look at Moses ... the meekest man of the earth. Meekness/humbleness is of great value to God.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
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[reneweddaybyday]

I have yet to hear how "rewards" work in the Calvinist economy.

I believe Cameron143 acknowledged receipt of crowns and indicated they will be thrown at the feet of Jesus ... not saying or implying that Cameron143 is "Calvinist" as I believe he has specifically said he is not "Calvinist".
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[reneweddaybyday]

I'll bet you can't define "spiritually dead" in a way that will satisfy all of us.

praying BillyBob does not rely on the half dead crime victim in the samaritan parable as that is improper interpretation of Scripture.

Dead in sin means separated from God, not that a person lacks all capacity to respond to His drawing to His Son to resolve the separation.

yep.
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[studier]

If we accept that we must follow God's Will, then the fruitless thought of our own "free will" is null and void.

Accepting God’s will doesn’t erase free will—it demonstrates it.

 

[Magenta]

Apparently, the determinist can't grasp the power of God to deal with convincing fallen men of the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ, of His Righteousness, of His absolute rule.

This is where your comprehension is so poor it may as well be non-existent. Interestingly it is those in your
camp who decry God revealing Himself and calling people out of the world. Your need to resort to dishonesty
and ad homs it is all you have with zero verses to back up the whole free will schtick. Especially when there
are so many verses that support what those you oppose, which affirms the power of God thoroughly.

 

[studier]

Well, this is probably a waste of time, but here is what GW says regarding the doctrine of election (DOE) in Romans 1-11:

Consider attention spans and capacities.

 

[Magenta]

Dead in sin means separated from God, not that a person lacks all capacity to respond to His drawing to His Son to resolve the separation.

Ah yes, because refusing to come into the light does not mean what it says to you, after all. You must twist it to mean something else.

You just can't seem to help yourself from ascribing to the unregenerated man qualities and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man.

 

[studier]

Oh I think the super-determinists are much worse off than that regarding their faulty assessment of the power and work the Holy Ghost and the Gospel.

I think that it is quite clear that the determinists make impotent both Him and it. Worse, they do not require either in their soteriological model.

Oh its bad. Very very bad indeed.

Imagine the mind that red X's this Scripture about the convicting/convincing ministry of the Spirit and the power of God's Word to overcome volitional unbelief.

 

[Magenta]

Imagine the mind that red X's this Scripture about the convicting/convincing ministry of the Spirit and the power of God's Word to overcome volitional unbelief.

Imagine the person who has no clue as to why a post was red x'd but pretends they
do and proclaims their erroneous assumptions as if they were facts. I see a lot of
this type of behaviour from your camp. False accusers, it makes you. And in fact
I actually quoted the part I disagreed with. This really does highlight your dishonesty.

 

[Cameron143]

I actually have no problem with "enabled" based upon Scripture like YLT John 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

One of the issues for the determinist is that Jesus Christ Himself explains this drawing/enabling as the Father teaching and unbelieving men hearing and learning and then believing.

In our time since the ascension of Christ, the sending of the Spirit to convict/convince the world combined with the power of the Gospel from God concerning His Son - which is all part of Jesus drawing all men to Himself - enables men to make the choice whether to Receive Him or reject Him, which God has given men the freedom to choose either way.

Contrary to your last 2 sentences, the will of fallen man is free to choose. The enablement comes in through being provided the information ultimately by the Spirit of God that fallen men must choose to Receive or reject. There will be no excuse because God Himself knows what has been made clear to all men and why they have rejected it and Him.

BTW, Cameron, most all of us acknowledge the work of God as primary in this. It's a fallacy that we don't.

I don't believe your last statement. It is the choice of man that is primary. That is what you just described. God has done all He can do and now it is up to the individual. Neither do you acknowledge that the conviction of the Spirit is acting upon the will of the individual influencing the will of the person under conviction. Further, the power of the gospel isn't merely in its message, but in the application of it to the individual by the Spirit. This is why it is only the power of God to those who actually believe. No power is exercised towards those who do not believe. Lastly, you never deal with the estate of fallen man that has him separated from God and contrary to God until you have him saved. In fact, in salvation, God repairs what makes man contrary to Him, and in doing so removes that which hinders man from coming to God. He takes out the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh, and places His Spirit in us so we will obey. You have people who are contrary to God obeying Him before this has occurred. To me, that is the cart before the horse.

 

[cv5]

I believe Cameron143 acknowledged receipt of crowns and indicated they will be thrown at the feet of Jesus ... not saying or implying that Cameron143 is "Calvinist" as I believe he has specifically said he is not "Calvinist".
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Yet, he does not really understand why.

And the "why" is without doubt the human "free will" volition to do service that garnishes the head of the WILLING volunteer with praise and glory.

BTW, true life (the only kind that God creates) must possess true free will by necessity.

Satan has it. And proves that he does day in and day out. In a bad way.

 

[cv5]

I don't believe your last statement. It is the choice of man that is primary. That is what you just described. God has done all He can do and now it is up to the individual. Neither do you acknowledge that the conviction of the Spirit is acting upon the will of the individual influencing the will of the person under conviction. Further, the power of the gospel isn't merely in its message, but in the application of it to the individual by the Spirit. This is why it is only the power of God to those who actually believe. No power is exercised towards those who do not believe. Lastly, you never deal with the estate of fallen man that has him separated from God and contrary to God until you have him saved. In fact, in salvation, God repairs what makes man contrary to Him, and in doing so removes that which hinders man from coming to God. He takes out the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh, and places His Spirit in us so we will obey. You have people who are contrary to God obeying Him before this has occurred. To me, that is the cart before the horse.

Truckload of fallacies and straw men there. Find the nearest dumpster and get rid of them.

I sure do not want them or need them.

 

[studier]

praying BillyBob does not rely on the half dead crime victim in the samaritan parable as that is improper interpretation of Scripture.

Not sure how half-dead crime victim compares to total depravity corpse, but there are many inconsistencies and errors in interpretations in the tradition.

 

[rogerg]

Dead in sin means separated from God, not that a person lacks all capacity to respond to His drawing to His Son to resolve the separation.

Separation from God IS dead. God is life.
Samplings of the word "dead" based upon biblical usage- it is the same "dead" as is used n Eph 2:1, 5. Dead means dead in its fulness, not sort of dead.

[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]
1 And[G2532] you[G5209] [hath he quickened], who were[G5607] dead[G3498] in trespasses[G3900] and[G2532] sins;[G266] ... 5 Even[G2532] when we[G2248] were[G5607] dead[G3498] in sins,[G3900] hath quickened us together with[G4806] Christ,[G5547] (by grace[G5485] ye are[G2075] saved[G4982]


[Mat 22:31 KJV]
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead,[G3498] have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
[Mat 27:64 KJV] 64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead:[G3498] so the last error shall be worse than the first.
[Mat 28:7 KJV] 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead;[G3498] and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
[Mar 12:26-27 KJV]
26 And as touching the dead,[G3498] that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead,[G3498] but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
[Luk 7:15 KJV]
15 And he that was dead[G3498] sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
[Luk 16:30-31 KJV]
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead,[G3498] they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.[G3498]
[Luk 20:38 KJV]
38 For he is not a God of the dead,[G3498] but of the living: for all live unto him.
[Jhn 5:21 KJV]
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead,[G3498] and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[Jhn 12:17 KJV]
17 The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead,[G3498] bare record.
[Act 5:10 KJV]
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead,[G3498] and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

 

[Cameron143]

Truckload of fallacies and straw men there. Find the nearest dumpster and get rid of them.

I sure do not want them or need them.

Another odd way of saying...You're right.

 

[Magenta]

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead,[G3498] and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[Jhn 12:17 KJV]

Free willers must really hate such verses that show it is by God's will and not their own.

What do they do with them? Close their eyes and wish them away???

And let's not forget one of their faves: it does not mean what you think it does!

And another of their faves: you have taken that verse out of context.

So odd that they think something said in one context has no application in any other.

Very strange indeed.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

There are plenty of "fellow workers" throughout Scripture who absolutely know that they are, and wouldn't have it any other way.

I love the verse in 1 Cor 3 which tells us we are fellowlaborers together with God ... we are not the focus ... we are merely planters/waterers and it is God Who gives increase. But there is also warning as well:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

no other foundation than the Lord Jesus Christ ... no mixing man's wisdom with the Word of God ... there will be God no increase from God.
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[studier]

I don't believe your last statement. It is the choice of man that is primary. That is what you just described. God has done all He can do and now it is up to the individual. Neither do you acknowledge that the conviction of the Spirit is acting upon the will of the individual influencing the will of the person under conviction. Further, the power of the gospel isn't merely in its message, but in the application of it to the individual by the Spirit. This is why it is only the power of God to those who actually believe. No power is exercised towards those who do not believe. Lastly, you never deal with the estate of fallen man that has him separated from God and contrary to God until you have him saved. In fact, in salvation, God repairs what makes man contrary to Him, and in doing so removes that which hinders man from coming to God. He takes out the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh, and places His Spirit in us so we will obey. You have people who are contrary to God obeying Him before this has occurred. To me, that is the cart before the horse.

God’s work makes faith possible, not inevitable—and that’s why people remain accountable for rejecting Christ. Per Scripture, it’s Belief > Saved, not the reverse.

 

[rogerg]

Free willers must really hate such verses that show it is by God's will and not their own.

What do they do with them? Close their eyes and wish them away???

And let's not forget one of their faves: it does not mean what you think it does!

Yup, lol, "it really don't mean that" is their old standby reply.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Not sure how half-dead crime victim compares to total depravity corpse, but there are many inconsistencies and errors in interpretations in the tradition.

all I know is that the half dead guy is used to promote salvation of the "total depravity corpse" ... that's what's been postulated ... which is not the purpose of the parable as has been explained ... and hopefully/prayerfully put to rest. Total improper interpretation of the passage ... shameful workmanship.
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