Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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I do admit Christ's suffering was finite, but it was the equivalent of the eternal punishment for all believers. It is the Lake of Fire...the second death...we are saved from. And we are saved from it because on the cross our sin debt is paid and we are no longer under condemnation. This is why we don't suffer the second death. It can't possibly be physical death we're saved from because we all die physically.

And we are all raised physically so yes, physical death has been conquered. You don't seem to want to acknowledge that. The Lord's word was sin and die so there is no reason to raise men back to life except for the Cross.

The lake of fire is not the punishment for sin. You are sorely mistaken.

The reason we don't suffer the second death is because we believe in Christ's payment and His resurrection. We live because He lives.
 
Because universal sounding terms are frequently used in the limited sense. Why can't you understand that "all" is often used in the qualitative sense and not the quantitative sense.
the same "universal terms" are just as frequently used on your side of the fence.

Words are to be understood in light of the verse within which the word is placed ... the verse is to be understood in light of the immediate context ... the immediate context is to be understood in light of the remote context ... the remote context is to be understood in light of the Book in which it is set ... the Book is to be understood in light of the whole scope of Scripture. God has a purpose for every single tittle ... every single jot ... every single word ... every single verse ... every single book ... and those who disregard the fact that OT was written in Hebrew ... NT was written in Greek ... and those languages differ from English ... the cultural differences between then and now ... those who disregard such things are ignorant of the significance of the impact of their inattention to such matters. Even in my lifetime, the rainbow has been changed from God's token of the covenant He made with the earth into a celebration of that which is totally abhorrent to God ... smh ...




And, yes, according to Jn 6, Jesus taught that all the Father gives (draws to Him) he will resurrect on the last day.
are you referring to this verse

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


or are you referring to this verse

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.




Rufus said:
Also, why would God draw all men in the quantitative sense since you have just basically conceded that God knows who will come to Jesus and who won't. So, what is the point to God drawing people to his Son that He knows fully well will never go to Him?
so that those who are cast into the lake of fire have no excuse.

If God does not "draw all" ... those who are not "drawn" have an excuse.

Romans 1 clearly states that they are without excuse because God has shown them (Rom 1:19) ... God's eternal power and Godhead are clearly seen (Rom 1:20) ... they knew God; however they glorified him not as God, they were unthankful, and became vain in their imaginations (Rom 1:21).




Rufus said:
You paint God as this confused, village idiot who doesn't know what He's doing.
so sad that you could even think such thoughts about God ... even worse that you would submit those thoughts in an online forum on the web ...




Rufus said:
And in your universe, this kind of thinking makes good sense? "I'm going to draw all men w/o exception to my Son even though I knew in eternity that only small remnant would actually be drawn to Him."
How is that any different than leading the children of Israel out of Egypt knowing that not all would enter into the promised land ... even Moses, who led them out?
.
 
And we are all raised physically so yes, physical death has been conquered. You don't seem to want to acknowledge that. The Lord's word was sin and die so there is no reason to raise men back to life except for the Cross.

The lake of fire is not the punishment for sin. You are sorely mistaken.

The reason we don't suffer the second death is because we believe in Christ's payment and His resurrection. We live because He lives.
Appreciate the discussion. Grace and peace.
 
Thank you @LifelongLearner!
This week we will reach over 500 pages proving that you were correct all along. Man does not have freewill when it comes to spiritual matters. Although man can make such decisions which allow him to function in this world, he cannot seek God without God being the cause. This is just one of those things which God keeps to Himself. He does the seeking, the calling, the choosing, the saving - of a particular people!
 
I'm surprised that they did not hire you to correct the NKJV of the Bible. :rolleyes:
BTW - I know Pig Latin, and I say you do not know what you speak of!
If a version of the Bible doesn't translate the proper language used who cares about the argument you are presenting. Every Old Testament should be word for word as the original Hebrew Language it was written in. Otherwise, the new translation is just making it up.
 
Thank you @LifelongLearner!
This week we will reach over 500 pages proving that you were correct all along. Man does not have freewill when it comes to spiritual matters. Although man can make such decisions which allow him to function in this world, he cannot seek God without God being the cause. This is just one of those things which God keeps to Himself. He does the seeking, the calling, the choosing, the saving - of a particular people!

Yes, a god who creates people in such a fallen state they cannot believe his promises or act on them in a positive way, all this denial of salvation for "whosoever" so he can magnify himself.

It is all too very spiritual, one might think Christ Jesus never even came in the flesh.
 
Again, the burning bush was God's way of getting the attention of Moses, and that it caused him to turn.
I actually have made this very claim. But then as we continue to read God eventually tells Moses to remove his sandals and Moses chooses to obey. So we clearly see Moses is choosing to obey which at the time Moses [(IS NOT EVEN SAVED AND STILL CHOOSING TO OBEY - Moses would be considered here as Natural Man)].
 
*****"I WILL"*****

Two words that the super-determinists love to hate.


It makes sense, since their god hates most of humanity.

I always find it interesting that their god hates those he arbitrarily chooses not to save.

Yet, believers are commanded to love our enemies, seems like their god has higher expectations of his followers than he does of himself.
 
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It makes sense, since their god hates most of humanity.

I always find it interesting that their god hates those he arbitrarily chooses not to save.

Yet, believers are commanded to love our enemies, seems like their god has higher expectations of his followers than he does of himself.
The same can be said of the god people have tormenting and torturing people forever after in the Lake of Fire.

Is that not the God of your understanding?
 
Why should I answer your question when you pushed aside and avoided answering mine?

That's rude.

I'll try again.

Do you think they thought themselves to be self righteous?

I did answer the question but you didn't like the answer! You might as well have asked, "Do you think lions bring themselves to be carnivores?" :rolleyes: Likewise, man does not become a sinner. We are born evil. We are born sinners which is why we sin -- just like the king of the jungle kills and eats his prey because his carnivorous nature demands that of the beast!

Also, I explained recently that the very essence of sin is PRIDE which invariably leads to idolatry, which would include self-worship, self-exaltation, self-aggrandizement, self-centeredness, etc. -- all of which rejects God's authority, power and glory.

And for your info, if you disagree with the above paragraph, you have to look no further for solid proof than the Genesis post-Fall narrative. Pride is what prohibited A&E from humbly owning and confessing their sin!

Now...aren't you glad you asked such a good question, which originally was, as I recall, "Do you think they brought themselves to be self-righteous ?" Now, you're asking, "Did they think of themselves as being self-righteous?" My answer to this new question is an unequivocal NO! For sin itself is deceitful! Therefore, the Pharisees were totally self-deceived. Not only were they self-deceived, they were trapped by their deceitfulness and pride.

Prov 11:6
6 The righteousness of the upright delivers them,
but the unfaithful are trapped by evil desires.
NIV


It would appear that such helpless people would be in dire need of God's rescuing grace! They might even need a new heart to flush out those evil desires with godly ones. Who would have ever thunk? :coffee:
 
The same can be said of the god people have tormenting and torturing people forever after in the Lake of Fire.

Is that not the God of your understanding?

Not only that but the condemned will be held in everlasting contempt by this all-loving God who FWers claim loves all people eternally (Dan 12:2). :rolleyes:
 
Not only that but the condemned will be held in everlasting contempt by this
all-loving God who FWers claim loves all people eternally (Dan 12:2). :rolleyes:
Daniel12-2.png

Daniel 12 verse 2 Many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
the same "universal terms" are just as frequently used on your side of the fence.

Words are to be understood in light of the verse within which the word is placed ... the verse is to be understood in light of the immediate context ... the immediate context is to be understood in light of the remote context ... the remote context is to be understood in light of the Book in which it is set ... the Book is to be understood in light of the whole scope of Scripture. God has a purpose for every single tittle ... every single jot ... every single word ... every single verse ... every single book ... and those who disregard the fact that OT was written in Hebrew ... NT was written in Greek ... and those languages differ from English ... the cultural differences between then and now ... those who disregard such things are ignorant of the significance of the impact of their inattention to such matters. Even in my lifetime, the rainbow has been changed from God's token of the covenant He made with the earth into a celebration of that which is totally abhorrent to God ... smh ...





are you referring to this verse

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


or are you referring to this verse

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.





so that those who are cast into the lake of fire have no excuse.

If God does not "draw all" ... those who are not "drawn" have an excuse.

Romans 1 clearly states that they are without excuse because God has shown them (Rom 1:19) ... God's eternal power and Godhead are clearly seen (Rom 1:20) ... they knew God; however they glorified him not as God, they were unthankful, and became vain in their imaginations (Rom 1:21).





so sad that you could even think such thoughts about God ... even worse that you would submit those thoughts in an online forum on the web ...





How is that any different than leading the children of Israel out of Egypt knowing that not all would enter into the promised land ... even Moses, who led them out?
.

Mankind needs no "excuse"; for all men intuitively know they are sinners, and they know the world is spiritually/morally broken by observing the activities of their fellow men. AND...all men intuitively know that this life isn't all that is (Eccl 3:11).
 
I did answer the question but you didn't like the answer! You might as well have asked, "Do you think lions bring themselves to be carnivores?" :rolleyes: Likewise, man does not become a sinner. We are born evil. We are born sinners which is why we sin -- just like the king of the jungle kills and eats his prey because his carnivorous nature demands that of the beast!

Also, I explained recently that the very essence of sin is PRIDE which invariably leads to idolatry, which would include self-worship, self-exaltation, self-aggrandizement, self-centeredness, etc. -- all of which rejects God's authority, power and glory.

And for your info, if you disagree with the above paragraph, you have to look no further for solid proof than the Genesis post-Fall narrative. Pride is what prohibited A&E from humbly owning and confessing their sin!

Now...aren't you glad you asked such a good question, which originally was, as I recall, "Do you think they brought themselves to be self-righteous ?" Now, you're asking, "Did they think of themselves as being self-righteous?" My answer to this new question is an unequivocal NO! For sin itself is deceitful! Therefore, the Pharisees were totally self-deceived. Not only were they self-deceived, they were trapped by their deceitfulness and pride.

Prov 11:6
6 The righteousness of the upright delivers them,
but the unfaithful are trapped by evil desires.
NIV


It would appear that such helpless people would be in dire need of God's rescuing grace! They might even need a new heart to flush out those evil desires with godly ones. Who would have ever thunk? :coffee:

Keep getting your trophies, sir, for knowing the right things to say with some here.

Enjoy it.

Wishing you a nice Day.
 
During the period of the Mosaic Law [(ANYONE)] both CHOSEN JEWS or non chosen Gentiles DIED EQUALLY for breaking any of the 10 Commandments.

So God held All People, including the CHOSEN JEWS to the {same} standards.

God is the SAME as He was back then even TODAY.

That means anyone preaching favoritism is clueless.

Remember, even the OUTSIDERS could join God.

Isn't Joseph's wife "Asenath," daughter of a PAGAN PRIEST, the mother of 2 Tribes of Jacob\Israel...:unsure:
 
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During the period of the Mosaic Law [(ANYONE)] both CHOSEN JEWS or non chosen Gentiles DIED EQUALLY for breaking any of the 10 Commandments.

So God held All People, including the CHOSEN JEWS to the {same} standards.

God is the SAME as He was back then even TODAY.

That means anyone preaching favoritism is clueless.

Remember, even the OUTSIDERS could join God.

Isn't Joseph's wife "Asenath," daughter of a PAGAN PRIEST, the mother of 2 Tribes of Jacob\Israel...:unsure:

Kudos to you for 'fessing up! You have finally come to your senses since it's only you clueless FWers who have been "preaching favoritism" through your absurdly illogical complaints of same borne by your carnal imaginations.

Yes, all "OUTSIDERS" who were drawn by God could join Him! The Queen of Sheba is a great example of this truth when God drew her to visit Solomon in order to learn about Him. And it was an effectual drawing, evidently, if we are to believe Jesus' comments about her (Mat 12:42).
 
As per usual, one verse out of context. Double :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Isa 66:22-24
22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD.
24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
NIV

This passage, too, I suppose is quoted "out of context"? Why don't you enlighten us with the proper contexts of both passages? If you cannot, then your complaints are just loud, empty, clanging noises, lacking any substance.
 
Kudos to you for 'fessing up! You have finally come to your senses since it's only you clueless FWers who have been "preaching favoritism" through your absurdly illogical complaints of same borne by your carnal imaginations.

Yes, all "OUTSIDERS" who were drawn by God could join Him! The Queen of Sheba is a great example of this truth when God drew her to visit Solomon in order to learn about Him. And it was an effectual drawing, evidently, if we are to believe Jesus' comments about her (Mat 12:42).
Actually the teachings of predestination or selection is the proper definition of favoritism. But I am sincerely glad you understand that favoritism is incorrect.
 
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