Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

Im pretty sure the rising of Lazarus has nothing to do with the free will or God's will debate. For either side.

Jesus told us the purpose ...

John 11:41-42 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

We have a tendency to read into Scripture something the Author of Scripture never intended ... then use what we "read into Scripture" as some sort of proof text to support a claim.

I believe Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead shortly before His crucifixion and resurrection ... when Jesus rose from the dead, they would remember that He had also raised Lazarus from the dead, so they knew He could do it – this would shore up their faith and they would believe God sent Him ... and they would not fall victim to the lying pharisees who bribed Roman soldiers to claim the disciples had come and taken Him (Matt 28:12-15).
.

 

[Magenta]

I've never read Augustine on the subject.

She refuses to acknowledge that both Jesus and Paul taught man's inability.

She is too attached to her self-exalting theology to accept what is actually written in the Bible.

 

[Magenta]

The natural man operates only according to the flesh. His mind is hostile towards God and is not subject to the law,
nor can he be...Romans 8:7. So how does someone in that estate believe the command to believe or mortify the flesh?

Well, the text says he (unregenerated man) cannot submit. Don't expect free willing folks to accept what is written.

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

 

[Cameron143]

If there are none that seek after God, and someone shows an interest in the things of God, why would I dampen that interest. It's the very thing I look for. It probably means God is at work. Jesus did always what He saw the Father doing. What do you see God doing? How do you know when God is at work?

No one? Really?
I see. It's okay to demean a person's ability to parent their children, but you can't even tell when God is at work.

 

[Blain]

Do you suppose that God is capable of making the distinction between those that want to believe but cannot and those who do not want to believe?

Yes he is capable of anything

 

[Genez]

Can i ask what this is based upon ?

John 11:1-3

Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. ​

(This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord ​

and wiped his feet with her hair.) So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”​

​

Lazarus was from a family of strong believers.
They said that Jesus in the past revealed that he loved Lazarus.

 

[Blain]

Romans 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Faithful believers witness to unbelievers and present the truth of the gospel ... this is God making the first move ... reaching out to mankind through the method He stated He would reach out (1 Cor 1:21). The Scriptures themselves are God making the first move in reaching out to fallen man.

When the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is presented to the unbeliever, he or she can either believe, and the power of God works salvation to him or her ... or he or she can suppress the truth in unrighteousness and receive the consequence of suppressing/rejecting.

According to some who have posted in this thread, natural man will never, never, never, under any circumstance, believe the gospel ... even when God reaches out to him or her to begin with.


Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The word "confess" is translated from the Greek word homologeō which means to say the same thing as.

When the gospel is presented to the unbeliever ... he or she confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord and believes God raised Him from the dead, he or she is saved and it is God Who works salvation ... not the faith of the one who believed or the confession of the one who confessed.

According to some who have posted in this thread, the natural man cannot "say the same thing as" what God's Word says. The verse does not say that the natural man considers Jesus Christ as Lord on his or her own. And please note, the verse implies that there is something heard (or read) that the natural man can either "say the same thing as" what God's Word says ... or the natural man can suppress the truth in unrighteousness and not "say the same thing as" God's Word.

According to some who have posted in this thread, natural man will never, under any circumstance, "say the same thing" as what God's Word says ... even when God sends His Word so folks can seek Him, find Him, believe Him ... or when God sends a faithful believer to speak His Word to the unbeliever.


I believe God has provided all mankind needs ... even in his fallen state ... to come to faith in Him, when He reaches out to them. Others believe differently. It's interesting, though, Blain, I have asked some if they believe the Lord Jesus Christ is Messiah ... I ask "is Jesus Christ Lord in your life" ... and they don't respond. They won't say yes, Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus said Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven (Matt 10:32) ... scratchin' my head over that one ...

And the reason I ask is because there is an insistence that no one can believe unless God "gifts" faith ... some have even gone so far as to claim they don't have to believe ... or I don't believe - the Lord Jesus Christ believes for me (or words to that effect) ... so I ask point blank "is Jesus Christ Lord in your life". If someone cannot even acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord in their life in an online Christian forum where there is anonymity ... yikes ...
.

I am not sure why some will not answer but I will answer yes Jesus Christ is Lord of my life and anyone who confesses this is a believer in Christ

 

[Blain]

It is supposed to be a battleground.
Just like basic training simulates warfare!

It how it is fought that matters.
But, must be fought just the same.

If the Holy Spirit has his way?
Personal feelings (at times) will not matter.
God is desiring to be killing off your old preferred ways, to replace with his own.

​

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, ​

and take up his cross, and follow Me." Matthew 16:24​

From the notebook:

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone keeps on desiring to 'come after'/follow Me {positive volition - being occupied with Christ} - and you do - disregard self {rejection of human good - and it is an order} and pick up your cross {execution of divine good} and keep on following Me."​

{Note: This 'cross' is not Calvary's cross. Instead it is like the cross of Peter. It refers to the willingness to set aside that which the world counts important (human good) and substitute for it God's plan (divine good).

grace and peace.....

No it is certainly not supposed to be a battle field because the whole point is not to be at war with each other it is to discuss things in order to understand and learn the the truth of a matter
Do you come at your brother and sister in Christ with a knife? or sword? No you come at them with the love of Christ and the spirit of truth

 

[Mem]

Yes he is capable of anything

I believe that is His compassion. He knows our hearts, that is what we want and what we don't want (our will), and as Paul said of his, "I do want I don't want to do, and don't do what I want to do." And that is what God judges is of primary concern, your heart, rather than the actual work.

 

[Genez]

Sure, but it still has relevance. He is dead. The invisible things of God are known by the things that are seen.

Two weeks before the Rapture Jesus will email and tell you to be ready....

He would not want to do it without your approval.

 

[Genez]

No it is certainly not supposed to be a battle field because the whole point is not to be at war with each other it is to discuss things in order to understand and learn the the truth of a matter
Do you come at your brother and sister in Christ with a knife? or sword? No you come at them with the love of Christ and the spirit of truth

In church it is not supposed to be a battlefield.

Come to a public arena?

 

[sawdust]

Only weak, feeble, darkened minds that ignore context could come with an interpretation that differs from "all kinds of men".

And for your info, the text does not say it's God wills/decrees that all men be saved. It says, rather, that God desires that all men be saved.

Strange how God can give to us our desires (which come from Him in the first place) but can't give Himself what He desires.

Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself also in the Lord, And He shall give you the desires of your heart.


You asked why God's grace is "ineffectual"? It isn't, when His grace is rejected it is showing exactly why those who do such things need to be eternally separated in the lake of fire.

 

[Genez]

Then explain to me why God's grace is so ineffective with the majority of the people in the world. Why was it impossible for them to believe and repent when Jesus said everything is possible with God? It seems to me God's ineffectual grace just makes it more impossible for most to believe. Some divine favor is your idea of His grace. God needs to upgrade his kindness.

You still think that grace makes you believe.

 

[sawdust]

The natural man operates only according to the flesh. His mind is hostile towards God and is not subject to the law, nor can he be...Romans 8:7. So how does someone in that estate believe the command to believe or mortify the flesh?

You've been told time and time again, you simply are not willing to believe.

 

[Blain]

I believe that is His compassion. He knows our hearts, that is what we want and what we don't want (our will), and as Paul said of his, "I do want I don't want to do, and don't do what I want to do." And that is what God judges is of primary concern, your heart, rather than the actual work.

Yes he does indeed look to the heart that is why it says in scripture how one can have the outward appearance of godliness but not so in their hearts.

 

[Blain]

In church it is not supposed to be a battlefield.

Come to a public arena?

See that is the issue you see this as an arena it is not an arena it is in every way also a church just not in a building. If you go into a debate with that kind of mindset you will never learn anything and never grow in spirit you only come to make war and be in war and that will only cause more strife both in your heart and the hearts of others. Tell me this where in scripture does say to make war with each other? all I have seen in scripture is to encourage and build each other up r. 1 Thessalonians 5:11 states, "Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing." Other verses like Hebrews 3:13 and Hebrews 10:24-25

 

[cv5]

Only weak, feeble, darkened minds

Yea, the super-determinists are quite adamant that God truly hates all of those horrible unregenerate men. Which of course means literally everyone other than themselves.

They also say that He died for the pre-selected righteous.......not these pre-doomed deaf blind leprous sinners.

Sure it sounds awfully unbiblical. And just plain awful. But how then would we know an heresy if there weren't any around to compare with doctrine of the sound rightly divided scholarly type?

So maybe it isn't all bad.

 

[cv5]

You've been told time and time again, you simply are not willing to believe.

Pretty much the same phenomenon as here....

[Jhn 10:25 KJV] 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

 

[sawdust]

Not if someone actually jumped into the water and pulled him out first! Your god is either a coward or he doesn't like to get is feet wet. He'd rather play it safe and keep his distance from the water, right?

No, God doesn't jump in and pull people out of the lake of fire. God saves the drowning, not the drowned. The salvation of God is right at the fingertips of all who believe, there is no need to drown. It's their choice to refuse God's truth, not the Lord's.

 

[Cameron143]

You've been told time and time again, you simply are not willing to believe.

Yeah, I heard how God gives partial regeneration but no scripture on it.