Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

actually he strengthened pharaohs heart. by starting small and ending large. so when the last plague came, Pharoah was so hardened, he would do what God needed.

He did not force pharaoh to do anything

Oh...I agree totally. But that is what FWers believe because in their world God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart until after Pharaoh hardened his own, otherwise God would have "forced" Pharaoh's hand and caused the king to sin. God simply mimicked the king. However, God's hardening of Pharaoh was how His "mighty hand" compelled him to let His people go (Ex 3:19-20)!

 

[Rufus]

What if your Verse read God chose for Christians to be in Jesus?
Aren't Christians conformed to the image of Jesus?
Yes!
So is it possible that Verse is not about Christians being elected but rather Jesus was elected to be whom Christians would be conformed to?

So, "us" in the passage = Jesus?

 

[studier]

Again, no thanks and for the reasons previously stated.

Oh, come on. You wanted to teach. I was taught to respect the pulpit. You have it. I've sat through crazy things very respectfully, walked out quietly at the end and simply never went back. I've already amazed you by assisting you. You started well. Israel was chosen.

 

[HeIsHere]

I think this fits in here...

God will show mercy on whomsoever He wills...

Reformed Camp: Oh good! That must mean me, my church friends, and a few others around the world!

 

[Rufus]

You know what I mean by [Calvinistic] Determinism.

I have to side with @reneweddaybyday on the Adam & Eve debate. God atoned for their sins.
Pharaoh has been covered extensively. I have to side with myself and others who see Pharaoh's involvement and YHWH using it - strengthening it - as @Everlasting-Grace has noted.
I also see Balaam's volitional obedience involved in the Biblical story and I won't be responding to selective proof-texting to balance what you may choose to say from a few chapters of Scripture.

How did that "strengthening" workout out for Pharaoh -- as that "strengthening" happened by the "mighty hand" of God which compelled Pharaoh to let God's chosen people go (Ex 3:19-2).

Re the sins that God atoned for in the Garden were the sins of his chosen (Eve). There's zero biblical evidence that Adam repented of his sin and trusted God, whereas such evidence does exist for Eve. Christ atoned for the sins of every man, woman and child in the world, according to FWers -- so how come the vast majority of the world has wound up in hell and is still hell-bound?

Learn to exegete scripture already!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Obviously not.
In fact Moses was up and down Mt. Sinai at least EIGHT TIMES.

Doing what exactly?

Negotiating the covenant of course.

Gods covenant with Israel was in effect before moses was even born

 

[Rufus]

Everyone needs so much help these days.

Which speaks pointedly to mankind's helpless condition, doesn't it?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Are you a universalist, then???

you Mean did deny salvation to people?

 

[Rufus]

Choose them to do what exactly?
To prove TULIP?

As if God is saying "nanny nanny foo foo you did not get chosen" to the rest of humanity?
That is what you say is going on here?

If you TULIP-ers actually believe that was God's purpose is raising up Israel, you are truly hopeless.

Spoken by the guy who will swear on a stack of bibles that Adam was truly the self-sacrificing superhero of the Fall.

Pray tell...what was God's purpose for choosing Israel? I can barely wait for your answer...

 

[Rufus]

you Mean did deny salvation to people?

Can someone truly be denied anything that wasn't promised to them or that they don't deserve?

 

[Rufus]

I'm not. I'm establishing a pattern for how God chooses. Whether He is chooing an individual or a nation is immaterial.

And that "pattern" began long before Israel. It began in the Garden with Eve, although I know you don't believe this.

 

[studier]

RE: 1Tim2 c.f. Is55

Please anyone feel free to modify any point to make it clearer.

I know I don’t have to invite anyone to disagree with it and mock it along with anyone who may agree with it.

OK, if we delete all the less than immaterial rhetoric from this post – estimated to be about 90% of it - we’re left with a proposition about Scripture something like this:

• 1Tim2:4-6 does not tell us that God desires all of humanity (“men”) to be saved
• The proposal that this is substantiated by Isa55:9-13 which tells us God’s Word does not return to Him empty but will accomplish what God desires and achieve the purpose for which God sent it

We’re left to tie this together which I assume goes something like this:

• God’s Word-Gospel will accomplish what God desires and achieve the purpose for which God sent it.
• God’s Word-Gospel does not save all men
• Therefore, God does not desire to save all men
• Therefore, 1Tim2:4 cannot mean that God desires to save all men

I have many questions and observations and angles to approach this from and will only provide a few:

In the context of Is55 I see this:

• Is55:1 an offer to come and receive abundant sustenance without cost – a picture of grace.
• Isa55:2 A question why people work so hard for things that don’t satisfy them – which sounds like Jesus in John6 speaking about giving men eternal life
• Is55:3 Commands to listen and come to YHWH and you will live, and He will make an everlasting covenant with you based in the Davidic promises – pictures salvation and eternal covenant and Messianic promises
• Is55:4-5 leadership to the nations – this is Messianic Kingship per Davidic promises
• Is55:6-7 a call to repentance
• Is55:8-9 God’s transcendent thoughts and ways
• Is55:10-11 God’s word accomplishes what He desires
• Is55:12-13 restoration of creation
• Is55 is an offer of salvation to men to listen, hear, repent, and obey, all of which is involved in and is a picture of faith. God’s Word will accomplish this offered salvation which includes bringing about the restoration of the creation and provision of Messianic leadership for the nations under the Davidic King pursuant to the Davidic Covenant. Isaiah55 is as close a picture of the Salvation Gospel of Jesus Christ as we get in the Hebrew Scriptures.
• 1Tim2:4 is in line with Is55. God desires all men to be saved. As in Is55 the offer is to all men. As in Is55, being saved involves listening to God, hearing God, repenting and believing God and accepting His offer to come to Him for salvation which includes enjoying the abundance of the restored creation under the leadership of the Davidic, Messianic King Jesus.
• Saying God does not desire all men to be saved is like saying God’s does not desire all men to listen to Him, repent, believe and obey Him and enjoy His restored eternal creation and Messianic King.
• The volitional response of men is in the salvation of men in Is55 and inherent everywhere else including 1Tim2.
• God desires/wills all men to be saved, sends His Word/Spirit as rain - Is55 - on all. And as He wills, it produces growth in good soil but not on rocks or poor soil which depict God’s allowance of satanic activity and the volition of men Luke8.
• God allows volitional mankind to be rocks and poor soil and not accept and not abide in His will and Word
• God will not allow volitional creatures to prevent His will for His salvation plan, cosmic restoration, and Messianic Kingship over all His restored creation to be enjoyed by volitional men who have chosen to accept/receive/take His gracious offer of salvation through faith.
• Neither God’s material creation nor God’s salvation plan can reject His will. God’s Messianic King functions perfectly according to God’s will and does not reject it. Volitional mankind on the other hand can and does reject God’s will.
• God’s desires are multifaceted. God’s Word agrees with God’s multifaceted desires.
• Proof-texting a few verses of Scripture apart from context most often misses the point(s).

 

[studier]

How did that "strengthening" workout out for Pharaoh -- as that "strengthening" happened by the "mighty hand" of God which compelled Pharaoh to let God's chosen people go (Ex 3:19-2).

Re the sins that God atoned for in the Garden were the sins of his chosen (Eve). There's zero biblical evidence that Adam repented of his sin and trusted God, whereas such evidence does exist for Eve. Christ atoned for the sins of every man, woman and child in the world, according to FWers -- so how come the vast majority of the world has wound up in hell and is still hell-bound?

Learn to exegete scripture already!

You're repeating what I just answered.
The answer to your FWers question is FW.
Already have.

 

[Rufus]

Deuteronomy 4:37-40 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt; To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day. Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

sadly, the children of Israel failed to drive out nations ... a failure which has resulted in what we see going on today in the ME.
.

And why did God love the fathers?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

How did that "strengthening" workout out for Pharaoh -- as that "strengthening" happened by the "mighty hand" of God which compelled Pharaoh to let God's chosen people go (Ex 3:19-2).

Re the sins that God atoned for in the Garden were the sins of his chosen (Eve). There's zero biblical evidence that Adam repented of his sin and trusted God, whereas such evidence does exist for Eve. Christ atoned for the sins of every man, woman and child in the world, according to FWers -- so how come the vast majority of the world has wound up in hell and is still hell-bound?

Learn to exegete scripture already!

it strenghtned PHAROAHs will. which was to reject god.. and God used this to free his people and destroy pharoah and his army

 

[lrs68]

So, "us" in the passage = Jesus?

US are the Christians that become conformed in HIM [Jesus].

It's not an individual statement but about those who are Believers. The Believers are the ones TO BE CONFORMED TO JESUS. Jesus is the ONE CHOSEN BY GOD TO BE WHOM THE BELIEVER IS CONFORMED TO.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Can someone truly be denied anything that wasn't promised to them or that they don't deserve?

if your going to punish them for all eternity. if they have no possibility to make an informed decision. then yes..

 

[Cameron143]

And that "pattern" began long before Israel. It began in the Garden with Eve, although I know you don't believe this.

I agree that Eve was chosen.

 

[GWH]

God has used horrible people to execute judgment on Isreal in the old testament. What's to say he still dosent? There are just no prophets in the church age to proclaim it.

When God does it, okay. But beware the "prophet" who proclaims Hitler, Stalin, Mao and other murderous atheists did God's will!

 

[Cameron143]

Oh, come on. You wanted to teach. I was taught to respect the pulpit. You have it. I've sat through crazy things very respectfully, walked out quietly at the end and simply never went back. I've already amazed you by assisting you. You started well. Israel was chosen.

You think your Jedi mind tricks can work on me?