Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Adam was no "robot" but he was HELPLESS and God chose to not reconcile him to Himself. And the saints in the New Order will be perfectly conformed to Christ's image, so like their Savior they will not be able sin. So...going by your logic all the saints on the restored earth are going to be reduced to robots because like God they will not be able to make choices contrary to their NEW NATURE! Sin will be a thing of the past!
You really won't enjoy the New Order if that's where God has destined you to be...
You really won't enjoy the New Order if that's where God has destined you to be...
You claimed I added to scripture. I'm just seeing if you really believe that. The power of God is obviously God's power, as opposed to power exercised by someone else. Unto salvation tells us how the power of God is directed. The directing of the power is to those who believe. When power is employed it is manifested, or experienced in some way. Just like when you turn on the light switch the bulb lights up, when God turns on the lights, people get saved.
Well stated! FWers view "free" incompletely. To their naive minds "free" (or freedom) is just a one-sided coin, i.e. free TO and they totally ignore the fact that true freedom is to be free FROM whatever it is that encumbers or enslaves man's volition, which of course is the power of sin. The POWER of sin is broken in God's people, and its Christ and Christ alone who breaks that power.
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To be saved, man doesn't need to be free, but once he is saved he does. Hmmmm.
And your CDS is noted. Why is it that you feel having to label someone is of greater value than simply dealing with ideas? Would it help if I labeled your posts as evidence of you being a Pelagian heretic? I'm nothing if not amenable.
And your CDS is noted. Why is it that you feel having to label someone is of greater value than simply dealing with ideas? Would it help if I labeled your posts as evidence of you being a Pelagian heretic? I'm nothing if not amenable.
If after a time of sowing to the Spirit like Paul (Romans 7:19), at that point there is clearly no free will. But the joy and peace he sought is also accompanied with righteousness or, The Kingdom of God. I think, often, we get the cart before the horse. Um, who is it that communes with the Spirit of ''liberty'' (free will)?
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. (John 1:12)
What do I think? Is it not conditional on the Father's timeframe, and not ours?
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. (John 1:12)
What do I think? Is it not conditional on the Father's timeframe, and not ours?
Maybe you should have read more of what I have been saying here.
1. As far as I am concerned it is a special grace I am receiving that helps me get out of bed every morning not the common grace given to all men. Assuming you are in reasonable good health, you won't need the degree of grace I do to get out of bed.
2. I have continually said the Lord meets us with grace and truth and He does this while we are yet sinners, still living in darkness and what's more He does it from the moment we are born.
3. Never at any time here in this thread or anywhere else in this forum or any other forum I have been privileged to be a part of, have I said anything other than we are saved by grace through faith.
Grace is God's working policy. Nothing in this world or beyond gets done apart from grace. Maybe I should be asking you why you think your volition is unable to function as God intended when He comes to us with grace and truth? He is able to make the truth known to, not only the unregenerate but, the degenerate in Romans 1 so they can give answer from their own volition but you who, having been drawn to Christ by learning from the Father Jn.6:45, need to be saved before you can be saved. Confused much????
Why is it you can recognise grace that is powerful enough to raise a man from the dead but cannot recognise it is powerful enough to temporarily free a man's will from it's bondage to sin in order for that man to give his own volitional response (believe or not believe) to the truth presented?
Hopefully one day you will learn that the doctrine of Election is not about God choosing who to save or not save but is about choosing what to do with believers for He had promised to Himself, even before time began, that He would give believers eternal life. Titus 1:2 Jn.3:16 Maybe then you will understand, not just how the unregenerate can believe, but why it is important that a person believe before they are regenerated.
Angels are watching sir.
1. As far as I am concerned it is a special grace I am receiving that helps me get out of bed every morning not the common grace given to all men. Assuming you are in reasonable good health, you won't need the degree of grace I do to get out of bed.
2. I have continually said the Lord meets us with grace and truth and He does this while we are yet sinners, still living in darkness and what's more He does it from the moment we are born.
3. Never at any time here in this thread or anywhere else in this forum or any other forum I have been privileged to be a part of, have I said anything other than we are saved by grace through faith.
Grace is God's working policy. Nothing in this world or beyond gets done apart from grace. Maybe I should be asking you why you think your volition is unable to function as God intended when He comes to us with grace and truth? He is able to make the truth known to, not only the unregenerate but, the degenerate in Romans 1 so they can give answer from their own volition but you who, having been drawn to Christ by learning from the Father Jn.6:45, need to be saved before you can be saved. Confused much????
Why is it you can recognise grace that is powerful enough to raise a man from the dead but cannot recognise it is powerful enough to temporarily free a man's will from it's bondage to sin in order for that man to give his own volitional response (believe or not believe) to the truth presented?
Hopefully one day you will learn that the doctrine of Election is not about God choosing who to save or not save but is about choosing what to do with believers for He had promised to Himself, even before time began, that He would give believers eternal life. Titus 1:2 Jn.3:16 Maybe then you will understand, not just how the unregenerate can believe, but why it is important that a person believe before they are regenerated.
Angels are watching sir.
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Yes all sins are forgiven in Christ. I bolded your quote to point it out.
If a person wants to experience that forgiveness then there is only one place to be (ie. in Christ). God has promised to save believers. You are either a believer or you are not. When the unbeliever stands before the throne, God will point to His Son and say here I forgave all your debt but you rejected Me so you have no excuse.
Christ paid for our sin (wrongdoing) but we all must pay for our evil (rejection of the Word) for God cannot deny Himself. The unbeliever will pay with the lake of fire, the believer will pay with the loss of rewards.
The word of God is our greatest treasure, how we handle it, is our highest responsibility.
If a person wants to experience that forgiveness then there is only one place to be (ie. in Christ). God has promised to save believers. You are either a believer or you are not. When the unbeliever stands before the throne, God will point to His Son and say here I forgave all your debt but you rejected Me so you have no excuse.
Christ paid for our sin (wrongdoing) but we all must pay for our evil (rejection of the Word) for God cannot deny Himself. The unbeliever will pay with the lake of fire, the believer will pay with the loss of rewards.
The word of God is our greatest treasure, how we handle it, is our highest responsibility.
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No, I don't actually. You must have been on drugs that day and saw things that weren't in my post.
I know one thing about 1Cor 4 and it's something you personally HATE: God makes the difference either directly or indirectly through secondary causes. God has given to his elect by His grace (divine POWER) everything they need for salvation (2Pet 1:3-4). All of God's good and perfect gifts come from above (Jas 1:17). This is how Paul could ask that rhetorical question in 1Cor 4:7 by asking WHO makes the difference!? If you think you can make the case that Paul's answer is MAN makes all the difference in the world, then make your case! But just remember, it's ultimately NOT by man's doing that anyone is in Christ Jesus but by God's (1Cor 1:30). But you falsely believe that it's man's will that puts everyone in Christ, don't you? You essentially said earlier that man's will was the ultimate reason which is totally illogical and unbiblical. You assign the final cause in the chain of salvation to man's "freewill" choice, when that particular cause is but one of many secondary causes. The ultimate cause is God (see Rom 8:29-30).
Here's an analogy to prove this fact. A pool player has a tough shot to make. He has no clear direct shot with just the cue ball to land any one ball directly into a pocket, so he has to do a combination shot. If he hopes to pocket a ball, he's going to have to plan to hit one or more other balls to ultimately sink the target ball. So, after he carefully assesses the situation, he plans his shot -- the force needed to move the cue ball to strike a secondary ball, the amount of english to put on the cue ball, etc. which in turn will hit a second ball, and that ball in turn will hit a third, and the third will finally hit the target ball. To your way of backwards thinking the third ball in the chain of balls that were struck would be the ultimate cause for sinking the the 4th target ball. But that's nonsense! The ultimate cause is the Primary Cause, which was the cue ball! If that cue ball had not been hit precisely and accurately at the very beginning, the end result would have been very different. Therefore, the primary cause for pocketing the target ball was the first ball struck by the pool stick which was guided by a skillful eye and hand. All the other balls that were involved and in play when the shot was taken are secondary causes and, therefore, cannot be the ultimate/primary cause for sinking the target ball.
And this fact is biblically supported in the post-Fall narrative in Genesis. (See my 2665.) There is no expression of faith by Eve until after God got the salvation ball rolling by first determining in eternity to save her. Then in time and space God "called" Eve to himself (Gen 3:15) by decreeing her reconciliation. And then after He decreed that He made an atonement provision. And after he made that, the biblical record reveals Eve's positive response to these chain of events. Of course, again...according to your way of thinking, Eve would have ultimately caused her own salvation by her "freewill" decision. But that's not how the narrative unfolds, is it? Eve certainly was NOT the Primary Cause since she wasn't the one who decided to become an enemy of the Serpent and reconcile herself to God.
Eve is also the perfect poster child for God's sovereignty in salvation (Rom 9:15-18).
I know one thing about 1Cor 4 and it's something you personally HATE: God makes the difference either directly or indirectly through secondary causes. God has given to his elect by His grace (divine POWER) everything they need for salvation (2Pet 1:3-4). All of God's good and perfect gifts come from above (Jas 1:17). This is how Paul could ask that rhetorical question in 1Cor 4:7 by asking WHO makes the difference!? If you think you can make the case that Paul's answer is MAN makes all the difference in the world, then make your case! But just remember, it's ultimately NOT by man's doing that anyone is in Christ Jesus but by God's (1Cor 1:30). But you falsely believe that it's man's will that puts everyone in Christ, don't you? You essentially said earlier that man's will was the ultimate reason which is totally illogical and unbiblical. You assign the final cause in the chain of salvation to man's "freewill" choice, when that particular cause is but one of many secondary causes. The ultimate cause is God (see Rom 8:29-30).
Here's an analogy to prove this fact. A pool player has a tough shot to make. He has no clear direct shot with just the cue ball to land any one ball directly into a pocket, so he has to do a combination shot. If he hopes to pocket a ball, he's going to have to plan to hit one or more other balls to ultimately sink the target ball. So, after he carefully assesses the situation, he plans his shot -- the force needed to move the cue ball to strike a secondary ball, the amount of english to put on the cue ball, etc. which in turn will hit a second ball, and that ball in turn will hit a third, and the third will finally hit the target ball. To your way of backwards thinking the third ball in the chain of balls that were struck would be the ultimate cause for sinking the the 4th target ball. But that's nonsense! The ultimate cause is the Primary Cause, which was the cue ball! If that cue ball had not been hit precisely and accurately at the very beginning, the end result would have been very different. Therefore, the primary cause for pocketing the target ball was the first ball struck by the pool stick which was guided by a skillful eye and hand. All the other balls that were involved and in play when the shot was taken are secondary causes and, therefore, cannot be the ultimate/primary cause for sinking the target ball.
And this fact is biblically supported in the post-Fall narrative in Genesis. (See my 2665.) There is no expression of faith by Eve until after God got the salvation ball rolling by first determining in eternity to save her. Then in time and space God "called" Eve to himself (Gen 3:15) by decreeing her reconciliation. And then after He decreed that He made an atonement provision. And after he made that, the biblical record reveals Eve's positive response to these chain of events. Of course, again...according to your way of thinking, Eve would have ultimately caused her own salvation by her "freewill" decision.
But that's not how the narrative unfolds, is it? Eve certainly was NOT the Primary Cause since she wasn't the one who decided to become an enemy of the Serpent and reconcile herself to God.Eve is also the perfect poster child for God's sovereignty in salvation (Rom 9:15-18).
And that is where those who don't think we can have free will make their first mistake. Freedom is not about being without limit or borders. Even the LORD God has His boundaries. You recognise this as I have heard you say "God is bound to His nature".
I said this at the very beginning of the thread and was dismissed by the OP but until freedom is understood for what it is ie. perfect fulfillment of one's own place and power (all of which is designed and given by God), then discussing free will is pointless. Real freedom has boundaries, if it didn't, we would have unending chaos.
I said this at the very beginning of the thread and was dismissed by the OP but until freedom is understood for what it is ie. perfect fulfillment of one's own place and power (all of which is designed and given by God), then discussing free will is pointless. Real freedom has boundaries, if it didn't, we would have unending chaos.
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Maybe you should have read more of what I have been saying here.
1. As far as I am concerned it is a special grace I am receiving that helps me get out of bed every morning not the common grace given to all men. Assuming you are in reasonable good health, you won't need the degree of grace I do to get out of bed.
2. I have continually said the Lord meets us with grace and truth and He does this while we are yet sinners, still living in darkness and what's more He does it from the moment we are born.
3. Never at any time here in this thread or anywhere else in this forum or any other forum I have been privileged to be a part of, have I said anything other than we are saved by grace through faith.
Grace is God's working policy. Nothing in this world or beyond gets done apart from grace. Maybe I should be asking you why you think your volition is unable to function as God intended when He comes to us with grace and truth? He is able to make the truth known to, not only the unregenerate but, the degenerate in Romans 1 so they can give answer from their own volition but you who, having been drawn to Christ by learning from the Father Jn.6:45, need to be saved before you can be saved. Confused much????
Why is it you can recognise grace that is powerful enough to raise a man from the dead but cannot recognise it is powerful enough to temporarily free a man's will from it's bondage to sin in order for that man to give his own volitional response (believe or not believe) to the truth presented?
Hopefully one day you will learn that the doctrine of Election is not about God choosing who to save or not save but is about choosing what to do with believers for He had promised to Himself, even before time began, that He would give believers eternal life. Titus 1:2 Jn.3:16 Maybe then you will understand, not just how the unregenerate can believe, but why it is important that a person believe before they are regenerated.
Angels are watching sir.
1. As far as I am concerned it is a special grace I am receiving that helps me get out of bed every morning not the common grace given to all men. Assuming you are in reasonable good health, you won't need the degree of grace I do to get out of bed.
2. I have continually said the Lord meets us with grace and truth and He does this while we are yet sinners, still living in darkness and what's more He does it from the moment we are born.
3. Never at any time here in this thread or anywhere else in this forum or any other forum I have been privileged to be a part of, have I said anything other than we are saved by grace through faith.
Grace is God's working policy. Nothing in this world or beyond gets done apart from grace. Maybe I should be asking you why you think your volition is unable to function as God intended when He comes to us with grace and truth? He is able to make the truth known to, not only the unregenerate but, the degenerate in Romans 1 so they can give answer from their own volition but you who, having been drawn to Christ by learning from the Father Jn.6:45, need to be saved before you can be saved. Confused much????
Why is it you can recognise grace that is powerful enough to raise a man from the dead but cannot recognise it is powerful enough to temporarily free a man's will from it's bondage to sin in order for that man to give his own volitional response (believe or not believe) to the truth presented?
Hopefully one day you will learn that the doctrine of Election is not about God choosing who to save or not save but is about choosing what to do with believers for He had promised to Himself, even before time began, that He would give believers eternal life. Titus 1:2 Jn.3:16 Maybe then you will understand, not just how the unregenerate can believe, but why it is important that a person believe before they are regenerated.
Angels are watching sir.
I have dealt with all your verses, they are most often eisegesis.
You are actually refuting your own argument.
Romans 1:16
It is the inherent truth and power in the Gospel message
You are actually refuting your own argument.
Romans 1:16
It is the inherent truth and power in the Gospel message