Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

[studier]

I see in the example some relevant Scriptures but several that do not have to do with the disputed points so we can use it as a reference but what I found seems more succinct.

You'd need to include some verses in your list for U.

 

[rogerg]

The discussion about the Savior has not yet gotten to the point of precisely what the Savior needs to do for man. The discussion would include things such as giving him Faith which is the yet unanswered Thesis you in essence put forth and I'm leaving for the awol @GWH to address with an Antithesis.

Titus3:5 doesn't say that there is nothing we may do or can contribute. It says we don't do "works of righteousness" which is not defined in these few verses. And these verses do not say we cannot believe the Gospel.

Although we can see where Faith might be inserted here in Titus3:7 because this is Paul who also wrote Eph2:8, these verses do not specifically mention Faith until Titus3:8 in close context.

So., we're right back to discussing your Faith Thesis.

Didn't you say it is the Savior who saves?
Do you think there are works other than works of righteousness that can save someone?

 

[rogerg]

First our agreement: we are saved by God’s grace through faith which should NOT be viewed as a work or law. More later because I am traveling.

No problem and no rush. I will just say quickly though, that the faith that brought/brings salvation is Christ's faith, not ours. Ours comes from, and is a byproduct of, salvation, and therefore, ultimately, of His faith.

 

[studier]

No problem and no rush. I will just say quickly though, that the faith that brought/brings salvation is Christ's faith, not ours. Ours comes from, and is a byproduct of, salvation, and therefore, ultimately, of His faith.

There is substantial mention of the Faith of Christ that is translated as [our] Faith in Christ which has been a topic of study in Christian scholarship circles for some time. I noticed the translation issues years ago and later read some of the articles discussing it. It'll be interesting to see how this may come into play if this discussion proceeds.

 

[studier]

Didn't you say it is the Savior who saves?
Do you think there are works other than works of righteousness that can save someone?

Yes, I did, and then I said we'd have to discuss what He does to save and whether things like your Thesis about God giving men Faith is accurate.

I think you may be wrongly classifying some things as works and that your Thesis about Faith needs to be discussed. But I'm attempting to honor the process @GWH is proposing and see how well it works with some willing participants who can maintain some decorum. He'll have to rest from traveling though.

 

[tablet123]

My goal in this thread is to discuss how we can answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity among his followers that is found in John 17:20-23.
It seems to me that a lot of chat by Christians tends to ignore Jesus' concern, but for those who share it the question is how to achieve it, and the answer involves agreeing on one interpretation of Scripture.

Thus, I would like to begin by sharing a way of interpreting Scripture that is based on the instruction of Paul in 1THS 5:21 to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” As I have been seeking ultimate truth and testing what I have learned, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements, but before I share them I would like to ask y'all to tell which two most guide your thinking and chatting.

Thanks and love in Christ (LIC)

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do
his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

It is simple allow the Spirit to lead you to be Christlike for a Spirit led life will not sin.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Some people do not allow the Spirit to lead them and make excuses for their sins.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The people who do not allow the Spirit to lead them doing sin believing they are saved will not be with Jesus.

 

[GWH]

So, @GWH a discussion mainly on T?

Thesis: Faith is a work - a work of God not a work of man

Thesis: [God] gives to man to believe on Christ.

Synthesis: God gives every sinner the ability/MFW to choose whether to accept Christ or not. (Deut. 30:19, cf. Acts 28:23-31)

 

[GWH]

The question then that needs definition, resolution, and clarification is: what is a Savior, and what must He do as the Savior to be the Savior? I do not think that the concept of a Savior should not be synthesized for a better understanding, as what the Savior is, is a non-negotiable point of departure regarding the doctrine of salvation. The Savior, in order to save, cannot save just save a little or somewhat - He either fully is and fully saves, or He isn't and doesn't - no middle ground there. So, the question then to be answered is: which one is He?

We agree that Jesus is Messiah, sent by God the Father to die as the atonement for the sins of humanity
so that whoever accepts Jesus as Christ and Lord is fully saved. This is the non-negotiable Gospel
or what I call the kerygma on that thread.

 

[GWH]

A Savior is someone who saves.

A Savior does whatever He needs to do to save.

From here we get into interpretations of what man needs God to do for him and what God has left man able to do in response to God and we're right back to asking TULIP to define what a Savior is as I previously addressed.

And we're right back at minimum to the Thesis I posted above in response to your post about Faith. So, the best approach in this is not these theoretical-based narratives but looking at Scriptures and dealing with them as @GWH is proposing.

The thinking that there is no middle ground negates man's ability to be informed by and to respond to God. So, this statement is an assertion based upon a foundational presupposition(s) that's contained in and evidenced by the Thesis you put forth about Faith, which BTW, has some interesting content for your side, which as I understand him, @GWH is attempting to draw out. Then comes the Antithesis to see if it takes us to Synthesis - better understanding - to clear up some seeming contradictions in the Text, which is part of what this Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis/Harmonization concept is all about.

Yes, and I hope you both/y'all are comfortable with agreement regarding the kerygma as elaborated here next so we can move on to discussing the secondary/didachaic doctrine of election (apologies for not redoing the citations):

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4, EZK 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

 

[GWH]

But the third sentence contradicts the first two: if the Savior saves, then there is nothing remaining for those saved to do to become saved as it has already occurred. All of man actions therefore are after, and from, salvation, so salvation cannot be dependent upon man in any way. Now, those who are saved, by having become saved, do manifest changes within themselves but that is from that salvation, not its cause.

Yes, the third sentence can contradict saved by grace unless one is careful to clarify that the non-meritorious condition of salvation per Scripture is cooperation aka faith, because God's grace does not abrogate the MFW that makes humans moral agents like God (see my explanation of the creation story in a previous post) and accountable for sin--and thus justly damnable.

 

[GWH]

A response to God by man comes as a result of salvation, not as a demand by God to contribute to the process, otherwise, Christ wouldn't be a Savior who fully is the Savior.

Yes, and both the initial response that resulted in salvation and subsequent responses as a result of salvation involve the non-meritorious condition of cooperation aka faith (as in post #530).

 

[GWH]

I'm a little confused, didn't you agree that it is the Savior who saves?

Anyway, these verses might help to clarify/reinforce. In 3:5, we are told salvation is by nothing that we may do or can contribute - that salvation is solely from/by His mercy.

[Tit 3:5-7 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Yes, as I like to say succinctly regarding salvation: God initiates; sinners cooperate--or not.

Titus 3:5-7 jibes just fine with Romans 3:21-8:1, which supports the MFW view.

 

[GWH]

The discussion about the Savior has not yet gotten to the point of precisely what the Savior needs to do for man. The discussion would include things such as giving him Faith which is the yet unanswered Thesis you in essence put forth and I'm leaving for the awol @GWH to address with an Antithesis.

Titus3:5 doesn't say that there is nothing we may do or can contribute. It says we don't do "works of righteousness" which is not defined in these few verses. And these verses do not say we cannot believe the Gospel.

Although we can see where Faith might be inserted here in Titus3:7 because this is Paul who also wrote Eph2:8, these verses do not specifically mention Faith until Titus3:8 in close context.

So., we're right back to discussing your Faith Thesis.

I'm baaaack!
The lack of definition (faith) in Titus 3:7 illustrates why I said previously
that local context needs to be augmented by broader context.

 

[GWH]

Didn't you say it is the Savior who saves?
Do you think there are works other than works of righteousness that can save someone?

Yes, we did, and No we don't.

 

[GWH]

No problem and no rush. I will just say quickly though, that the faith that brought/brings salvation is Christ's faith, not ours. Ours comes from, and is a byproduct of, salvation, and therefore, ultimately, of His faith.

I noted that you cited a couple of verses to support that assertion,
which is a concept I never heard in my Baptist churches,
but I intend to state the antithesis of that when I catch up with y'all
for us to have fun harmonizing.

 

[GWH]

Yes, I did, and then I said we'd have to discuss what He does to save and whether things like your Thesis about God giving men Faith is accurate.

I think you may be wrongly classifying some things as works and that your Thesis about Faith needs to be discussed. But I'm attempting to honor the process @GWH is proposing and see how well it works with some willing participants who can maintain some decorum. He'll have to rest from traveling though.

Y'all are wearing me out trying to catch up!

 

[GWH]

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do
his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

It is simple allow the Spirit to lead you to be Christlike for a Spirit led life will not sin.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Some people do not allow the Spirit to lead them and make excuses for their sins.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The people who do not allow the Spirit to lead them doing sin believing they are saved will not be with Jesus.

I love those Scriptures!
Hope you will stick around and help us harmonize TULIP with MFW.
(You DO believe the miracle of love conquers all?)

 

[rogerg]

Yes, as I like to say succinctly regarding salvation: God initiates; sinners cooperate--or not.

Titus 3:5-7 jibes just fine with Romans 3:21-8:1, which supports the MFW view.

I don't understand your reference of Rom 3:21 and 8:1 to Titus 3:5-7. As I read them, they don't seem to directly pertain to cooperation with God unto salvation. Guess I will need further explanation from you as to where you find those linkage(s).

[Rom 3:21 KJV] 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[Rom 8:1 KJV] 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Yes, sinners cooperate, but not to become saved, after becoming saved. Were they required to do so to become saved, Christ wouldn't be the Savior ("Savior" singular), they would be.

 

[rogerg]

Yes, we did, and No we don't.

Hmmm, okay then, so by that, you are saying you are in agreement with the verse as written - that salvation is only by/through the mercy of God and therefore completely out of the control of man - that man is but its recipient.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[GWH]

I don't understand your reference of Rom 3:21 and 8:1 to Titus 3:5-7. As I read them, they don't seem to directly pertain to cooperation with God unto salvation. Guess I will need further explanation from you as to where you find those linkage(s).

[Rom 3:21 KJV] 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[Rom 8:1 KJV] 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Yes, sinners cooperate, but not to become saved, after becoming saved. Were they required to do so to become saved, Christ wouldn't be the Savior ("Savior" singular), they would be.

You did not notice the hyphen tween Romans 3:21 and 8:1,
which means the entire passage indicates cooperation with God's OS via faith.
Of course, the we come to the TULIP part in Romans 9:11-24.

Re cooperation: When you give someone a present, do you force them to open it or allow them to open it--or not?
And if they choose to open it, do you deem that to mean they worked for it or merely that they cooperated with your
act of giving it by receiving it?