Making a case for women in leadership

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Cameron143

Cameron143

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Maori_Aussie said:
First, I give primacy to the sayings of Jesus. Second, I understand that Jesus is saying the Jesus is the ultimate source of truth. Third, I accept that Jesus was occasionally a tad idealistic for this fallen world... Forth, I accept that Jesus does not seem to have the formal education that Saul did as a Pharisee at the feet of the famous Torah Teacher Gamaliel. Fifth, I see Paul being practical and bringing some elements of the Pharisee culture (formal education) into the Gentile Church. Note: Paul uses Pharisitic sayings on occasion "I pass on to you what I have received...".. So, for a beginner, the Church offers "teachers", but to the more advanced, the Church offers the Scripture, which includes the sayings of Jesus. So, I can lazily watch anyone preach (teach) in Church or on TV, but I diligently test it all against the sayings of Jesus.
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Do you believe the words of Jesus are more authoritative than the rest of scripture?
 
Dino246

Dino246

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Leastofall said:
I believe Paul was teaching from this scripture. The word for husband has several meanings.

and thy desire H8669  shall be to H413  thy husband, H376  and he H1931  shall rule H4910  over thee
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The verse you cited is a statement of certain consequence, not a command. Compare it with the following verses stated to Adam. It would be silly for Paul to appeal to that to support the idea that all women should be in submission to all men.
 
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Leastofall

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Dino246 said:
The verse you cited is a statement of certain consequence, not a command. Compare it with the following verses stated to Adam. It would be silly for Paul to appeal to that to support the idea that all women should be in submission to all men.
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How so?
 
Dino246

Dino246

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Leastofall said:
How so?
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Adam was not commanded to sweat, but told that he would. He was not commanded to fight thorns and thistles, but told that he would. Similarly, Eve was not commanded to be under subjection to her husband, but rather told that he would rule over her. Indeed, why would God phrase a command to one person saying that another person would do something? That structure doesn’t exist in any other command.
 
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Maori_Aussie

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Cameron143 said:
Do you believe the words of Jesus are more authoritative than the rest of scripture?
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Yes. My authority hierarchy is 1: Commandments of the Lord. 2: Sayings of the Lord. 3: Other Scripture 4: Church Doctrines. 5: Consensus of the Elders. But to help reconcile I look at the context, and I do try to reconcile.
 
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Mouse_Cheeks

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Blain said:
Everyone knows Pauls words on women pastors or rather a women speaking or teaching in the church and at face value this would seem pretty clear however the context of the verse has to do with the issues that was going on in the church at the time but what really got me thinking was this right here

Galatians 3:28 states that in Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor male nor female, for all are one. This verse emphasizes the equality and unity of believers in Christ, transcending traditional social and cultural divisions. It highlights that these categories, while still present in human society,
are not determinants of value or significance within the Christian community and so this verse got me thinking if this is to be true then why do we take Pauls words at face value he would be contradicting the himself
unless of course he was speaking in regards to what was going on in the church at the time then it would make sense not to mention what about the women who he even baosted about who ministered to people such as Junia?

This one verse just doesn't make sense to me if indeed women are subhuman in the church and Jesus himself never forbid women of such a thing he never even addressed it
Would Jesus forbid the gospel being preached by a women?
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Good for you. :)

The apostle would be contradicting himself in that Oneness verse you noted if his idea of women being quiet in church were what it seems to imply.

And even that passage doesn't mean women can't teach God's Way. Or else the apostle would be remiss in having women apostles serving our master and spreading his good news under Paul's guidance.
We are all one in Christ.

The old is done away with. Behold the new has come. :D Praise our Lord!
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Maori_Aussie said:
Yes. My authority hierarchy is 1: Commandments of the Lord. 2: Sayings of the Lord. 3: Other Scripture 4: Church Doctrines. 5: Consensus of the Elders. But to help reconcile I look at the context, and I do try to reconcile.
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You don't believe all scripture is God-breathed? That it is all equally the word of God?
 
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Maori_Aussie

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Cameron143 said:
You don't believe all scripture is God-breathed? That it is all equally the word of God?
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No. The long history of the Church in establishing the cannon is proof of that. For 2-3 centuries, the Church had no cannon. Does that mean there was no word of God during that period? In the earliest decades, there was only word of mouth, and Jesus was fine simply using that. And notice the differing cannons of the differing churches...
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Maori_Aussie said:
No. The long history of the Church in establishing the cannon is proof of that. For 2-3 centuries, the Church had
no cannon. Does that mean there was no word of God during that period? In the earliest decades, there was
only word of mouth, and Jesus was fine simply using that. And notice the differing cannons of the differing churches...
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Jesus read from Scriptures. So did others.


Luke 4 verses 18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.
 
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Maori_Aussie

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Magenta said:
Jesus read from Scriptures. So did others.

The only record of Jesus writing anything was His drawing in the dust, when the women caught in adultery was presented.
Jesus always presented verbally.
There were also several "You have heard it said, but I say to you... teachings.
Luke 4 verses 18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.
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Maori_Aussie

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Magenta said:
Jesus read from Scriptures. So did others.


Luke 4 verses 18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.
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Jesus never quoted the NT.
 
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Maori_Aussie

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Magenta said:
Jesus read from Scriptures. So did others.


Luke 4 verses 18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.
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So can Paul's word cancel the words of Jesus? I say of course not!
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Maori_Aussie said:
No. The long history of the Church in establishing the cannon is proof of that. For 2-3 centuries, the Church had no cannon. Does that mean there was no word of God during that period? In the earliest decades, there was only word of mouth, and Jesus was fine simply using that. And notice the differing cannons of the differing churches...
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Jesus quoted written scripture. It was the Hebrew scriptures. He obviously thought it was the word of God. No doubt He studied the scriptures from His youth. But what I don't understand is how you can trust what people wrote that Jesus said is true if you don't believe in the inspiration of scripture. He didn't write down what He said for others to copy. And if the NT writers needed to write under inspiration, how, if all is inspired, how is one part more authoritative than another? Isn't the author in all cases the Spirit?
 
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Maori_Aussie

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Cameron143 said:
Jesus quoted written scripture. It was the Hebrew scriptures. He obviously thought it was the word of God. No doubt He studied the scriptures from His youth. But what I don't understand is how you can trust what people wrote that Jesus said is true if you don't believe in the inspiration of scripture. He didn't write down what He said for others to copy. And if the NT writers needed to write under inspiration, how, if all is inspired, how is one part more authoritative than another? Isn't the author in all cases the Spirit?
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OK. But then you have to ask what is your Cannon. Is it say the Ethiopian Coptic cannon, the Eastern Orthodox cannon, the Roman cannon, or the Western cannon. Those are the different cannons in use by the Church. Which one is the correct one????
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Maori_Aussie said:
The only record of Jesus writing anything was His drawing in the dust, when the women caught in adultery was presented.
Jesus always presented verbally.
There were also several "You have heard it said, but I say to you... teachings.
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You were talking about written Scriptures. In FACT, you said Jesus only used word of mouth. Obviously, that is wrong.
 
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Maori_Aussie

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Magenta said:
You were talking about written Scriptures. In FACT, you said Jesus only used word of mouth. Obviously, that is wrong.
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Are you saying that Jesus wrote something down????
And then consider your position on the Cannon.
Do you accept all the scripture the Ethiopians do?
If not, why not?
Oh. My council say it has less merit....
So it's not equal????
 
M

Maori_Aussie

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Apr 20, 2025
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Cameron143 said:
Jesus quoted written scripture. It was the Hebrew scriptures. He obviously thought it was the word of God. No doubt He studied the scriptures from His youth. But what I don't understand is how you can trust what people wrote that Jesus said is true if you don't believe in the inspiration of scripture. He didn't write down what He said for others to copy. And if the NT writers needed to write under inspiration, how, if all is inspired, how is one part more authoritative than another? Isn't the author in all cases the Spirit?
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Consider this scripture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bel_and_the_Dragon
Its Scripture for Catholics and the Orthodox, but the Protestants cut it out.
Why? Not Equal....
 
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