Loss of salvation???

[Taylorj2]

Maybe you could, I couldn't.

If anyone chooses to walk away, their salvation will be lost. Salvation is not guaranteed- therefore, it should be noted that I do not believe in once saved, always saved.

 

[Taylorj2]

They only think they can walk away.
You run away from home…
Your parents remain being your parents.

Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.


Psalm 139:7-10
​

Sure, God will always love you as a child. However, there are punishments and issues if you do run away. God is a good God and He won't force someone to be with Him that does not want to be with Him anymore. It should be noted that I am not a calvinist.

 

[Genez]

Look, I agree with you 100% . I want to start with that so there is no misunderstanding about what I'm saying here. I do not believe we can lose the gift God gives us, it's not by our will or power we gain our salvation, it's the same with keeping it or losing it too.
This said I can see how people can believe we can lose salvation and believe that we have to actively work to stay saved. I know there are scriptures that do seem to plainly teach that we can lose salvation. The question is how do all these scriptures and all the eternal security verses harmonize? One answer, by the Spirit.

It's only in truth that all these things can be seen to come together as they truly are in truth. I just think it's very necessary to address these other scriptures that do say we are to strive and obey, and even the danger of tasting the gift, coming so close you're "right there", and then turning away.

I have to say that as a born-again believer I also believed that we could lose salvation if we "wanted to". I more believed we had the freedom to choose to walk away, more than we could have it stripped away because we didn't obey well enough, but it all stemmed from the same misunderstanding. I could not understand how we choose Jesus with our free will, are then saved, but are now stuck as slaves of Christ? That just made no sense at all to me. A God that I choose to let into my heart will have to vacate if I choose for Him to, Right?

He brought me to see that the idea of "free will" is not biblical. It says we are slaves of sin, or we are slaves of obedience, which leads to righteousness. It never says we are just "free" to make any choice good or bad, as a matter of fact it says that we cannot do good outside His power and being born-again. It is impossible to please God or even seek God unless He draws you. These are Jesus words not mine, and I can and do testify that ANYTHING "good" that anyone can point to and say I did I have to point the credit directly back to God and His Son Jesus, because I would have never done any of these things if He hadn't changed my heart and rewired all my priorities supernaturally overnight then empowered me to continue doing these things for almost 13 years and counting. This is how and why He gets ALL glory, and also how the weight of salvation is not on my shoulders dependent on how well I obey. That would only be Holy probation ultimately dependent on my ability to obey. No, I do obey, but only by His power for His glory.

I know people will debate this night and day for 1000's of years, but it's not an either/or thing, it's a both/and thing, and can only be understood in truth by those whose eyes have been open to them in truth. Again, wanting to highlight I have believed both sides of this debate since I was saved, so I KNOW that you can be saved and believe either side of this debate from firsthand exsperiance.

I'll be blunt with you.
Rather.. the Word of God will be very blunt with all of us.

And, it is why we should not waste much time with such people.

"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid"

Proverbs 12:1
​

You think God keeps trying with them?
Can we do better than God can with them?

It's God's way of telling us to rest, and to trust God.

Leave them be... lest they distract you away from what God wants to show and teach us next.

 

[Genez]

If anyone chooses to walk away, their salvation will be lost. Salvation is not guaranteed- therefore, it should be noted that I do not believe in once saved, always saved.

You don't believe God can save.
It's really you who determines your salvation...

That's bad.

 

[Genez]

Sure, God will always love you as a child. However, there are punishments and issues if you do run away. God is a good God and He won't force someone to be with Him that does not want to be with Him anymore. It should be noted that I am not a calvinist.

I don't care what you are....

 

[Taylorj2]

You don't believe God can save.
It's really you who determines your salvation...

That's bad.

That's what the Bible teaches.

 

[NightTwister]

If anyone chooses to walk away, their salvation will be lost. Salvation is not guaranteed- therefore, it should be noted that I do not believe in once saved, always saved.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." - John 10:27-30

Looks like a guarantee to me.

 

[studier]

Maybe you could, I couldn't.

That's the point, isn't it?

 

[studier]

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." - John 10:27-30

Looks like a guarantee to me.

There's a lot of discussion about these verses earlier in the thread.

 

[NightTwister]

There's a lot of discussion about these verses earlier in the thread.

Not sure how that's relevant to my response.

 

[studier]

Not sure how that's relevant to my response.

The guaranty has been discussed along with what the verses say and don't say. Just pointing this out in case you want to read the arguments vs. restarting them.

 

[Taylorj2]

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." - John 10:27-30

Looks like a guarantee to me.

Question: Where does it say in that verse that a sheep can stop listening to his voice? Meaning that they cease being a sheep.

 

[Genez]

Question: Where does it say in that verse that a sheep can stop listening to his voice? Meaning that they cease being a sheep.

What do you believe they are?
Trans Christians?

What you believe is just as perverse.
It slams the Integrity of the One who does the saving...

Your god you present is just an angel who identifies with being God.

 

[NightTwister]

The guaranty has been discussed along with what the verses say and don't say. Just pointing this out in case you want to read the arguments vs. restarting them.

What the verses say is very plain and clear.

 

[studier]

What the verses say is very plain and clear.

Yes, so say many who read them as saying different things. Here's some of the discussion.

 

[Genez]

Question: Where does it say in that verse that a sheep can stop listening to his voice? Meaning that they cease being a sheep.

They become as willful wandering sheep.

Did you know?
Sheep are known for being dumb?
The wolves will end up getting them if they wander willfully too far.

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, ​

you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does ​

not lead to death. ​

​

There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.​

​

1 John 5:16​

Their soul will yet be in Heaven after they die the sin onto death.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15?
Look up! Concentrate on verse 15 when you do.

You will learn that Christians can surely lose rewards.
But, not their salvation!

grace and peace ............

 

[Taylorj2]

They become as willful wandering sheep.

Did you know?
Sheep are known for being dumb?
The wolves will end up getting them if they wander willfully too far.

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, ​

you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does ​

not lead to death. ​

​

There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.​

​

1 John 5:16​

Their soul will yet be in Heaven after they die the sin onto death.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15?
Look up! Concentrate on verse 15 when you do.

You will learn that Christians can surely lose rewards.
But, not their salvation!

grace and peace ............

That's not what I asked - they leave the fold, they cease to listen, and therefore they come to lose their salvation or should I say, walk away willingly.

 

[Genez]

What the verses say is very plain and clear.

The ones that the Holy Spirit is filling a believer when read.
Otherwise... nothing will be plain and clear.
Those need 1 John 1:9 to be mastered in their minds.

It begins all with knowing and understanding the flawless character of God.
God can not be two opposing things.
He can not say one thing plainly, and then appear to be saying something opposite in a passage that is not yet properly understood.

 

[Genez]

That's not what I asked - they leave the fold, they cease to listen, and therefore they come to lose their salvation or should I say, walk away willingly.

Mind your own business, then.
God knows those who are His own, in spite of how you judge.

He may have left your church for good reason!
If what they teach is what you are telling us here?
He knows he has to get out and to find God as He really is.

Sometimes it takes years of wandering before such a believer finally finds the sound teaching he intuitively knew was missing.

 

[studier]

The ones that the Holy Spirit is filling a believer when read.
Otherwise... nothing will be plain and clear.
Those need 1 John 1:9 to be mastered in their minds.

It begins all with knowing and understanding the flawless character of God.
God can not be two opposing things.
He can not say one thing plainly, and then appear to be saying something opposite in a passage that is not yet properly understood.

Cheap shot and poor argument.