Loss of salvation???

[studier]

That so?

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; ​

for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than ​

for your whole body to be cast into hell. ​

​

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; ​

for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than ​

for your whole body to be cast into hell."​

​

Matthew 5:29-30​

How simple could it get?
You're a genius!

Remaining in the context of the discussion, the argument that the Scriptures being discussed should be taken at face value makes sense. At least it's a good starting point, if not the best one. From there some idioms and analogies may easily be recognized. Others as @Sipsey mentioned, may take some deeper mining to understand, especially as current day Gentiles.

 

[Genez]

Remaining in the context of the discussion, the argument that the Scriptures being discussed should be taken at face value makes sense. At least it's a good starting point, if not the best one. From there some idioms and analogies may easily be recognized. Others as @Sipsey mentioned, may take some deeper mining to understand, especially as current day Gentiles.

Context needed.

Who was I addressing?

 

[studier]

Context needed.

Who was I addressing?

OK.
@Beckworth

His remark about "face value" as I read it was specific to certain topics and Scriptures. I doubt he'd disagree that there are idioms and analogies and other such types of writings in Scripture.

Also, I'm agreeing with @Beckworth to a point. I'm not speaking for him, but I did mention "face value" here in response to mainly reading the discussion between him and @mailmandan re: John10:27-28.

 

[Beckworth]

We are told to study, not simply read. There are many parables and Jewish idioms throughout the Scriptures.

If one takes every verse as literal or “at face value,” as you describe, there will be a great deal of wisdom overlooked. I agree that one does not need to know the Greek, Aramaic, Latin, or Hebrew in order to be saved or to live a Godly life.

However, I view having good resources to dig deeper into Scripture akin to watching a large screen HD 3D color monitor vs a 13” black and white TV screen. It doesn’t change the crux of the message, but it does add a depth and warmth to the message that reaches into ones soul.

I think you mis-interpreted my meaning. I was not talking about study helps; I was talking about using the Greek language or quoting outside sources or favorite scholars, or some obscure meaning to change the obvious meaning or intent of the verse; to try to “get around” a scripture that does not fit a particular doctrine, instead of taking the verse as God said it. To try to “explain away”. The obvious meaning, or change the meaning altogether. I see that a lot on this site.

Many times I have quoted a verse VERBATIM as God wrote it and some effort will be made to CHANGE the meaning by using the Greek language or appealing to “definitions” or some scholar. If we can’t read the word of God and understand what He is saying without needing to use a Greek lexicon or some outside source, ( to get the “real” meaning) then, the common man woujd never be able to know what God is really saying.

I am all for study helps that ENHANCE Our understanding of a passage—but not to try to CHANGE the meaning of the passage.

 

[Genez]

OK.
@Beckworth

His remark about "face value" as I read it was specific to certain topics and Scriptures. I doubt he'd disagree that there are idioms and analogies and other such types of writings in Scripture.

Also, I'm agreeing with @Beckworth to a point. I'm not speaking for him, but I did mention "face value" here in response to mainly reading the discussion between him and @mailmandan re: John10:27-28.

There are passages used to tell us we can lose our salvation....

Those are always taken at face value.

 

[studier]

I am all for study helps that ENHANCE Our understanding of a passage—but not to try to CHANGE the meaning of the passage.

I really do not want to derail this thread and have appreciated your discussion with @mailmandan mainly re: John10:27-28.

With that said, although I understand what you say above and agree with it to some degree with regard to certain Scriptures, having read some of your thinking re: baptism, I thought this might be a good verse (which I've seen discussed to some degree) to exemplify how the original language can affect the meaning of Scripture:

NKJ 1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NET 1 Peter 3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you– not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God– through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

ESV 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NAS 1 Peter 3:21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

So, we can see how the translators are differing in how they translate a Greek word and making a "pledge of" vs. making "an appeal to" are IMO quite different. IMO this decision can "change" how we approach baptism.

So, do we resolve such differences and find accuracy in context, in harmonizing all instruction re: baptism, in lexical definitions of words, in one or two or all of these, or by some other means?

 

[studier]

There are passages used to tell us we can lose our salvation....

Those are always taken at face value.

Clarify?

 

[Beckworth]

OK.
@Beckworth

His remark about "face value" as I read it was specific to certain topics and Scriptures. I doubt he'd disagree that there are idioms and analogies and other such types of writings in Scripture.

Also, I'm agreeing with @Beckworth to a point. I'm not speaking for him, but I did mention "face value" here in response to mainly reading the discussion between him and @mailmandan re: John10:27-28.

You are correct. My comment about “face value” WAS specific to most verses and not “general” for the entire Bible. Thank you. I appreciate your commen.

 

[Beckworth]

I really do not want to derail this thread and have appreciated your discussion with @mailmandan mainly re: John10:27-28.

With that said, although I understand what you say above and agree with it to some degree with regard to certain Scriptures, having read some of your thinking re: baptism, I thought this might be a good verse (which I've seen discussed to some degree) to exemplify how the original language can affect the meaning of Scripture:

NKJ 1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NET 1 Peter 3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you– not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God– through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

ESV 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NAS 1 Peter 3:21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

So, we can see how the translators are differing in how they translate a Greek word and making a "pledge of" vs. making "an appeal to" are IMO quite different. IMO this decision can "change" how we approach baptism.

So, do we resolve such differences and find accuracy in context, in harmonizing all instruction re: baptism, in lexical definitions of words, in one or two or all of these, or by some other means?[/QUOTEI

I Looked up the common definition of each phrase—“a pledge of”, an “appeal to,” and “a good conscience.”, and I woujd have to agree with each one. I don’t see a contradiction between them.

1) “the answer of a good conscience”- an internal response regarding whether one’s actions are right Or wrong. BAPTISM IS THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD. I would have to agree with this.

2) “Pledge of”—a Solemn promise or agreement to do something. A promise. To promise the performance of something. What has God “promised” in relation to Baptism?? Are there promises connected to Baptusm?? Yes, there are. Several, in fact. So what does God“pledge” or promise us when we are baptized? Nothing can answer this question but scripture—from God Himself. Let HIM answer this question and not some preacher or man. Here is what I find that God has promised about baptism;

1) it FORGIVES our sins Acts 2:38
2) it puts us INTO CHRIST where all spiritual blessings are. Roman’s 6:3, Galations 3:27
3) it puts us in contact with His death where He shed His blood that “washes away our sins.” Roman’s 6:3
4)it SAVES us 1 Peter 3:21
5) we can call ourselves “Christian” after the name of Christ because we have been baptized into His name. This is Paul’s argument in 1 Corinthians 1 where he tells men that they cannot wear the name of anyone unless (1) that person was crucified for you and (2) unless you were BAPTIZED into that person’s name.
6) It puts us into Christ’s church. 1Cor. 12:13

These are just a few of the promises associated with baptism. So, Peter is saying, when we are baptized, we are not doing it to remove physical filth as in a bath, but we are doing it because.God has pledged or promised to give us these special blessings.

3) “an appeal to”—to ask for something in an urgent or pleading manner. To make an earnest or urgent request to someone. This is certainly true if you understand the previous promises we just discussed. Yes. Now that I have been baptized, I am earnestly asking Gid to keep his promises to save me, to forgive me, to put me into Christ, to add me to Hus church—all of that!! That’s why I was baptized and by obeying God’s command (Matt. 28:18-19), I “appeal” to him to keep his word, His pledge, His promises. There is also a sense in which we could “appeal” to God’s authority, His power, His mercy and compassion, to perform what He has pledged.

So I would have to agree with each one of these translations. I see no conflict in their meaning or application to this passage. It does seem as though the words “a good conscience, and “appeal”. Have more to do with us and our actions, where as the word “pledge” has more to do with God’s actions. But I don’t think the meaning of the passage has been misrepresented by this.

Take another look at what ALL of the translators agree on—that baptism saves us. Nothing that follows that should contradict that one fact. If it does, then we have God contradicting Himself; He couldn’t be trusted and neither could the Bible. So with a statement like “Baptism does now save us”, you would expect everything that follows to be in agreement with that statement and in support of it. That seems to me to be just common sense.

Im not a scholar and I don’t pretend to be. Im sure this explanation is not “deep” or meets scholarly standards, but it is simplistic and makes sense to me, and most importantly, it does not CONTRADICT any other scripture written by the Holy Spirit concerning baptism.

 

[studier]

I Looked up the common definition of each phrase—“a pledge of”, an “appeal to,” and “a good conscience.”, and I woujd have to agree with each one. I don’t see a contradiction between them.

1) “the answer of a good conscience”- an internal response regarding whether one’s actions are right Or wrong. BAPTISM IS THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD. I would have to agree with this.

2) “Pledge of”—a Solemn promise or agreement to do something. A promise. To promise the performance of something. What has God “promised” in relation to Baptism?? Are there promises connected to Baptusm?? Yes, there are. Several, in fact. So what does God“pledge” or promise us when we are baptized? Nothing can answer this question but scripture—from God Himself. Let HIM answer this question and not some preacher or man. Here is what I find that God has promised about baptism;

1) it FORGIVES our sins Acts 2:38
2) it puts us INTO CHRIST where all spiritual blessings are. Roman’s 6:3, Galations 3:27
3) it puts us in contact with His death where He shed His blood that “washes away our sins.” Roman’s 6:3
4)it SAVES us 1 Peter 3:21
5) we can call ourselves “Christian” after the name of Christ because we have been baptized into His name. This is Paul’s argument in 1 Corinthians 1 where he tells men that they cannot wear the name of anyone unless (1) that person was crucified for you and (2) unless you were BAPTIZED into that person’s name.
6) It puts us into Christ’s church. 1Cor. 12:13

These are just a few of the promises associated with baptism. So, Peter is saying, when we are baptized, we are not doing it to remove physical filth as in a bath, but we are doing it because.God has pledged or promised to give us these special blessings.

3) “an appeal to”—to ask for something in an urgent or pleading manner. To make an earnest or urgent request to someone. This is certainly true if you understand the previous promises we just discussed. Yes. Now that I have been baptized, I am earnestly asking Gid to keep his promises to save me, to forgive me, to put me into Christ, to add me to Hus church—all of that!! That’s why I was baptized and by obeying God’s command (Matt. 28:18-19), I “appeal” to him to keep his word, His pledge, His promises. There is also a sense in which we could “appeal” to God’s authority, His power, His mercy and compassion, to perform what He has pledged.

So I would have to agree with each one of these translations. I see no conflict in their meaning or application to this passage. It does seem as though the words “a good conscience, and “appeal”. Have more to do with us and our actions, where as the word “pledge” has more to do with God’s actions. But I don’t think the meaning of the passage has been misrepresented by this.

Take another look at what ALL of the translators agree on—that baptism saves us. Nothing that follows that should contradict that one fact. If it does, then we have God contradicting Himself; He couldn’t be trusted and neither could the Bible. So with a statement like “Baptism does now save us”, you would expect everything that follows to be in agreement with that statement and in support of it. That seems to me to be just common sense.

Im not a scholar and I don’t pretend to be. Im sure this explanation is not “deep” or meets scholarly standards, but it is simplistic and makes sense to me, and most importantly, it does not CONTRADICT any other scripture written by the Holy Spirit concerning baptism.

Thanks. I'm just separating your answer with this post. I'll look through your answer, but I get the gist of it. It doesn't always take scholars, and most scholars debate this verse anyway.

 

[Kroogz]

Take another look at what ALL of the translators agree on—that baptism saves us.

Arguably, "Corresponding" is the keyword. A Type or symbol of the REALITY.

Acts 16:31 is NOT....Believe on the Ark and you will be saved. Or believe on baptism and be saved. They were a TYPE/SHADOW of a reality.

Hebrews 9:24
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

 

[Beckworth]

In review of this, let me add, WE ALSO pledge our allegiance to Christ when we obey Him in baptism. We make a “covenant” with Him; to follow Him, as a Disciple and a servant; to do His will and obey His commands. We pledge our life to Him. We make Him our Lord and King.

 

[Cameron143]

In review of this, let me add, WE ALSO pledge our allegiance to Christ when we obey Him in baptism. We make a “covenant” with Him; to follow Him, as a Disciple and a servant; to do His will and obey His commands. We pledge our life to Him. We make Him our Lord and King.

The new covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. We are simply the beneficiaries.

 

[studier]

Take another look at what ALL of the translators agree on—that baptism saves us.

I'll start here and try to be brief. Again, my point was not to derail things but just to point out the value of lexical studies since such was brought up.

I agree with your statement just above. 1Pet3:21 does say that baptism saves us. It looks to me like the flow of the language is water = that which corresponds to baptism = appeal/formal request to God from/for good conscience through/by means of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

As you can see, I'm not taking dogmatic positions on the underlined but just showing some more options of where this can go. At quick glance I'd look at Scriptures that seem to tie true faith to a good conscience (from good conscience) and/or the cleansing of conscience by the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ (for good conscience).

But what does seem clear from looking through lexical work and associated words in Scripture is that rather than "answer" or "pledge" this baptism is an appeal - a formal request (BDAG Lexicon) - to God. So, I think I'd be starting with your #3 and working from there. There is some work that may tie this formal request to prayer.

This doesn't answer all the arguments re: baptism but IMO there are so many contested points in all of these discussions that the only way to start narrowing down to final answers is to use all means of and tools for interpretation to know what each verse is actually saying.

 

[Genez]

The new covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. We are simply the beneficiaries.

And, that means?

Jesus is not going to lose His inheritance!

 

[Cameron143]

And, that means?

Jesus is not going to lose His inheritance!

And there is nothing for us to do to put ourselves into it. It was Jesus who entered into covenant with the Father. It is He who must give us the power to become the sons of God.

 

[Kroogz]

The new covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. We are simply the beneficiaries.

1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

holos: Whole, all, entire, complete
Original Word: ὅλος
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: holos
Pronunciation: HO-los
Phonetic Spelling: (hol'-os)
Definition: Whole, all, entire, complete
Meaning: all, the whole, entire, complete.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

holos: Whole, all, entire, complete​

Original Word: ὅλος
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: holos
Pronunciation: HO-los
Phonetic Spelling: (hol'-os)
Definition: Whole, all, entire, complete
Meaning: all, the whole, entire, complete.


We ALL benefit from His Life, death and resurrection.

Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

 

[Cameron143]

1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

holos: Whole, all, entire, complete
Original Word: ὅλος
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: holos
Pronunciation: HO-los
Phonetic Spelling: (hol'-os)
Definition: Whole, all, entire, complete
Meaning: all, the whole, entire, complete.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.


holos: Whole, all, entire, complete
Original Word: ὅλος
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: holos
Pronunciation: HO-los
Phonetic Spelling: (hol'-os)
Definition: Whole, all, entire, complete
Meaning: all, the whole, entire, complete.


We ALL benefit from His Life, death and resurrection.

Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

Only to those who believe...John 1:12.

Others have tried to explain to you an alternate understanding of the world world...cosmos. I doubt you will come to a different understanding if I take the time to explain, but thanks for sharing.

 

[Magenta]

always a good discussion over the always saved or not. i wont get into that.
but the question i have is
How do you KNOW you are saved in the first place?
is it a feeling?

Romans 8 verses 15-16 You did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

 

[Kroogz]

Only to those who believe...John 1:12.

Others have tried to explain to you an alternate understanding of the world world...cosmos. I doubt you will come to a different understanding if I take the time to explain, but thanks for sharing.

No, it's on you.

Explain to me how only a select few are under the power of the evil one? And It's not the whole world.