Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” Born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. You are chosen to proclaim the virtues of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. My soul will exult in my God, for He has clothed me with garments of salvation, and wrapped me in a robe of righteousness. Isaiah 61:10

 

[Magenta]

It is also my view that the natural man is as dead as the spirit man, and vise versa, as that is the sure prognosis.

Not according to Scripture. Those who are born again do not die twice. The natural man is sure to die twice unless he is born again.

It is of my opinion that is never too late until one is completely dead dead dead.

I agree. But until one is made alive and had their heart circumcised, they are a child of wrath, inherently hostile in their mind toward God, opposed to the spiritual things of God, incapable of submitting to God's law, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, yadda yadda yadda. The Bible makes this very clear and I do rattle on about it. Scripture attests to this and also to the fact that some simply do not hear (faith comes by hearing) because they do not belong to God. Yes yes all souls belong to God but that is like saying Jesus does not know someone, which is not possible, Jesus knows everyone, proper context must be employed. And like saying, he who has ears to hears does not mean there are people without ears. But everyone does not hear. That much is plain. Those who hear, live. Those who don't will die the 2nd death.

John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8, John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Magenta]

John 5:24-25 ~ Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life. Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

 

[Rufus]

The temple has been destroyed before. why did its destruction at the hands of Babylon not end Judaism?

Good grief, man! Scripture answers your question! After the first temple was destroyed, weren't there promises made by God for a new temple to replace it!? And wasn't the second temple built in the OC economy? And isn't the NC the game changer, whereby the types and shadows of the OC give way to substance and antitypes of the New? Isn't the NC UNLIKE the Old?

 

[Rufus]

You are correct, so far. It is the object of faith that saves, when one puts ones faith in that object, if the object is truly capable of saving. A man dying of thirst in the desert can see an oasis. If he believes there is water there and walks toward it, the water can save him. If it is a mirage, it won't save him.




Now you have left reality. What does "what defines anyone's faith is the object of it" mean? You can buy a generic tap/faucet from a hardware shop and use it on a drum to dispense oil, or petrol or water or milk. What a tap is dispensing does not "define" the tap. It's the a tap, according to a dictionary definition, in all cases. Why are you twisting language like this, just to shore up a theological position you do not even need to embrace to be saved? Why is winning an argument more important to you that getting to truth?

No, both my feet are still firmly planted on the ground. You're newest analogy, again, sucks raw eggs; for not everyone in the world has access or even needs a "generic tap/faucet". But EVERYONE has a worldview to which they subscribe -- in which they believe. And not everyone's faith in their worldview dispenses liquids.

 

[Rufus]

Christians are comprised of two men: the old man driven by the flesh and manipulable by the devil, and the new man empowered by the Holy Spirit. Christians can allow the old man to live, or crucify the old man by yielding to the Holy Spirit. Your assertion that Satan cannot take control of Christians is just not tenable when we listen to the complete body of New Testament teaching.

What part of 1Jn 3:7-10 didn't you get? Apparently all it, heh? You want more proof? 1John isn't enough? Then add these passages for starters:

Rom 6:14
14 For sin shall not be your master , because you are not under law, but under grace.
NIV

And,

Deut 30:6
6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
NIV

Sounds like effectual grace to me.

And,
Jer 32:37-41
37 Behold, I will gather them from all the countries to which I drove them in my anger and my wrath and in great indignation. I will bring them back to this place, and I will make them dwell in safety. 38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. 40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.
ESV

And,

John 8:36
36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
NIV

Recap:

So 1John 3 tells us that God's children CANNOT continue to sin -- cannot remain in sin -- because God's "seed" remains in them.

Romans 6 tells us that sin shall no longer enslave us because we're under God's [effectual] grace.

Deut 30 teaches that God circumcises the hearts of his people so that they will love him. And since they will actually love him, this means they will keep God's commandments (jn 14:15)

Jer 32 teaches that the Fear of the Lord which God effectually instills into the hearts of his people will keep them from turning away from Him.

And John 8 assures us that it is the Son who sets his people free -- free from all to which they were in bondage, i.e. the world, the flesh, the devil.

1John 3 doesn't teach that Christ's disciples will be free from attacks by the devil, or that the devil will never be able to successfully tempt any believer. But it does tell us that when these kinds of things happen, it will be only for a "season". No true child of God will ever finally succumb to such attacks. God's effectual grace powerfully working in the hearts of his people, through the Holy Spirit, makes ongoing sin an impossibility in a believer. The Old Man will never again gain control!

 

[Rufus]

If Biblical Judaism dies when the presence of God leaves the temple, why did Judaism not de when God abandoned the temple in Eli's day when Eli pronounced "Ichabod" (the glory has departed). Or when the veil was rent in two at Jesus' death and God's glory left the temple. Why are you selecting the 70 AD destruction of the temple as the end of Judaism?

Same answer as previously: Judaism didn't die during Eli's day because the New Covenant had not been instituted and ratified by Christ. It seems as though you think that the NC is merely an addendum to the Old? That it just modifies the Old in some respect?

 

[Rufus]

The bible doesn't teach that grace is limited, so I've determined that I'll call those that have adopted that particular philosophy "limited gracers." Perhaps this might explain their own sparse allotment of grace.

Oh...God's grace might indeed be limited quantitatively, but not qualitatively as you FWs believe. I would remind you that Christ's atoning death on the Cross, according to you FWs, didn't actually save anyone; it only made salvation possible! Ergo, Christ's death in your theological universe is limited qualitatively. Conversely, those of us in the Reformed Tradition believe that Christ's death on the Cross is effectual and saves all whom God intended to save, i.e. the elect. However, his death is limited quantitatively since God never intended to save all men w/o exception.

So...FWs don't get to escape the label of "limited" atonement.

 

[Rufus]

Now asked twice.

You should be asking yourself that question! After all, it was YOU who exalted and honored Paul by claiming that prior to his conversion he loved God as he knew him. And this wild and crazy theory is not backed up by scripture at all. Paul himself, in fact, never came close to hinting anything about himself what you claimed for him! Quite the opposite! From you preferred translation:

Acts 26:9-11
9 "Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.
NKJV

Wow! Paul "being exceedingly enraged" against Christ's disciples nonetheless went after them because he loved God as he knew him? You obviously easily swallow horse pills whole, don't you?

 

[Rufus]

I see the definition of "attains" as given per Oxford languages:

succeed in achieving (something that one desires and has worked for).
"clarify your objectives and ways of attaining them"

how do the completely dead even hope to attain anything? And I am not implying that the source of his hope is not from outside of him, but that hope no less does come from within him.

His hope comes from within him because God grace effectually works within him. See how you just limited the quality of God's grace?

 

[Rufus]

Rufus said: What puts a person into Christ?

PaulThomson said:
Believing that God raised Jesus from the dead and confessing Him as Lord puts a person into Christ.


One cannot believe that Jesus rose from the dead and confess He is Lord without believing God did some stuff that I did not do to make those two things true. My answer does not in any way deny that we are saved because of God.
I could have given one of the less shorthand answers that I have already given many times: God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us and, to confirm Jesus' appointment by God as mankind's "Lord and Christ", God raised Him from the dead, and by believing these things and trusting Christ as Lord and saviour God puts us into Christ.
SunergeO, not monergeO

Yeah...but what you're conveniently omitting is that the "some stuff" that God did was not effectual! Therefore, it cannot logically be said that it was by God's doing that anyone is in Christ. You FWs believe it's man's choice that ultimately and finally determines his eternal destiny. And you already expressed this previously, remember?.

Believing that God raised Jesus from the dead and confessing Him as Lord puts a person into Christ. So then being in Christ is what sinners do for themselves when they repent and believe the gospel. (emphasis mine)

Now you want to equivocate? I mean the 1Cor 1:26-30 passage does not give credit to both God and man! No synergism in that passage!

Methinks God did a wee bit more than just "some stuff" to procure man's salvation. He did it ALL!

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Rufus said: What puts a person into Christ?

PaulThomson said:
Believing that God raised Jesus from the dead and confessing Him as Lord puts a person into Christ.


One cannot believe that Jesus rose from the dead and confess He is Lord without believing God did some stuff that I did not do to make those two things true. My answer does not in any way deny that we are saved because of God.
I could have given one of the less shorthand answers that I have already given many times: God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us and, to confirm Jesus' appointment by God as mankind's "Lord and Christ", God raised Him from the dead, and by believing these things and trusting Christ as Lord and saviour God puts us into Christ.
SunergeO, not monergeO

Therefore, it cannot logically be said

You are a stranger to logic, Rufus. Any claims you make about your responses being logical always end up being cocktails of logical fallacies. I am not going to unravel any more of your pretensions to logic, until you do some study in logic and show you have some clues concerning what is and is not logical.

 

[PaulThomson]

Same answer as previously: Judaism didn't die during Eli's day because the New Covenant had not been instituted and ratified by Christ. It seems as though you think that the NC is merely an addendum to the Old? That it just modifies the Old in some respect?

Fallacy cocktail alert.

 

[PaulThomson]

Oh...God's grace might indeed be limited quantitatively, but not qualitatively as you FWs believe. I would remind you that Christ's atoning death on the Cross, according to you FWs, didn't actually save anyone; it only made salvation possible! Ergo, Christ's death in your theological universe is limited qualitatively. Conversely, those of us in the Reformed Tradition believe that Christ's death on the Cross is effectual and saves all whom God intended to save, i.e. the elect. However, his death is limited quantitatively since God never intended to save all men w/o exception.

So...FWs don't get to escape the label of "limited" atonement.

Fallacy cocktail alert.

 

[PaulThomson]

No, both my feet are still firmly planted on the ground. You're newest analogy, again, sucks raw eggs; for not everyone in the world has access or even needs a "generic tap/faucet". But EVERYONE has a worldview to which they subscribe -- in which they believe. And not everyone's faith in their worldview dispenses liquids.

Fallacy cocktail alert.

 

[studier]

Why is winning an argument more important to you that getting to truth?

Now asked twice.

You should be asking yourself that question! After all, it was YOU who exalted and honored Paul by claiming that prior to his conversion he loved God as he knew him. And this wild and crazy theory is not backed up by scripture at all. Paul himself, in fact, never came close to hinting anything about himself what you claimed for him! Quite the opposite! From you preferred translation:

Acts 26:9-11
9 "Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.
NKJV

Wow! Paul "being exceedingly enraged" against Christ's disciples nonetheless went after them because he loved God as he knew him? You obviously easily swallow horse pills whole, don't you?

Why is winning an argument more important to you that getting to truth?

Now asked thrice.

I exalted Paul? Customary rephrasing from you to create more argument.

It seems pretty clear Paul was living OC Judaism as he understood it including knowing how God described love for Him as obeying Him.

I wonder when it was that our Lord first considered Paul faithful. There must have been a reason He chose him for the service He did: NAS 1 Timothy 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service;

You seem to have very troubled and argumentative spirit. Why is that?

 

[studier]

Fallacy cocktail alert.

Another one?

Deafening.

 

[Rufus]

PaulThomson said:
Rufus said: What puts a person into Christ?

PaulThomson said:
Believing that God raised Jesus from the dead and confessing Him as Lord puts a person into Christ.


One cannot believe that Jesus rose from the dead and confess He is Lord without believing God did some stuff that I did not do to make those two things true. My answer does not in any way deny that we are saved because of God.
I could have given one of the less shorthand answers that I have already given many times: God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us and, to confirm Jesus' appointment by God as mankind's "Lord and Christ", God raised Him from the dead, and by believing these things and trusting Christ as Lord and saviour God puts us into Christ.
SunergeO, not monergeO



You are a stranger to logic, Rufus. Any claims you make about your responses being logical always end up being cocktails of logical fallacies. I am not going to unravel any more of your pretensions to logic, until you do some study in logic and show you have some clues concerning what is and is not logical.

You, sir, are the one always being ensnared by your own duplicity through your false gospel narratives. I mean what part of your own post from yesterday don't you understand? You clearly said yesterday unashamedly, unabashedly and unequivocally that Christians put themselves in Christ. In fact, it even gets worse for you because you also stated in part, "Believing that God raised Jesus from the dead and confessing Him as Lord..."

I mean in that post you truly doubled down on FW lie! For no one can even genuinely, truly, sincerely profess or confess Christ apart from the power of the Holy Spirit!

1 Cor 12:3
3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say , "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
NIV

No synergism in this passage either! The text doesn't say that "no one can say that 'Jesus is Lord'..." unless he cooperates with the Holy Spirit! IOW, Bunky, the passage isn't teaching a quid pro quo, reciprocating salvation. Anyone without the Spirit cannot genuinely confess Christ as Lord.

Humble yourself already and give up on your false gospel narrative before it's too late!

 

[studier]

You, sir, are the one always being ensnared by your own duplicity through your false gospel narratives. I mean what part of your own post from yesterday don't you understand? You clearly said yesterday unashamedly, unabashedly and unequivocally

Anytime the "sir" and the adverbs or adjectives start flying, we know we're in for some ruffled feathers we can simply bypass. That is if we aren't already bypassing most posts anyway.

I commend @PaulThomson for his new alerts.

 

[Rufus]

Now asked thrice.

I exalted Paul? Customary rephrasing from you to create more argument.

It seems pretty clear Paul was living OC Judaism as he understood it including knowing how God described love for Him as obeying Him.

I wonder when it was that our Lord first considered Paul faithful. There must have been a reason He chose him for the service He did: NAS 1 Timothy 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service;

You seem to have very troubled and argumentative spirit. Why is that?

Well...compared to what Paul thought about himself, I'd say you far exceeded Paul's own low pre-conversion opinion of himself.

What does seem very clear to me is that you're pretty ignorant of the scriptures. Let's take a look at your latest lame attempt to justify Paul -- or better yet to justify why God chose Paul to be an apostle! Did God really save Paul because he saw something "good" in him, as you're implying? Did God save Paul because he saw "faithfulness" in Paul in spite of his obsession with persecuting believers? Seems to me if Paul was faithful or zealous for anything, it was to persecute the Body of Christ! Here's the passage in larger context:

1 Tim 1:12-14
12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
NIV

Notice first that faith and love accompanied God's grace and was poured out abundantly on Paul! IOW...the faith and love that the Savior had in and for his Father were poured out on Paul. Could this fact have anything to do with why or how God found Paul "faithful"? Could the gifts of God's grace, faith and love have influenced why God called Paul in the first place and believed he would be a faithful servant? Or do you think God was admiring Paul faithfulness in persecuting believers? Or maybe God had such confidence in Paul because by the apostle's own admission he was "chief of sinners" (v.15)?