Understanding God’s election
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Which of the nine points of nine point Calvinism could a five point calvinist logically deny?
further…
1) Total Depravity: Man is so utterly sinful that he is incapable of responding to God apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit.
2) Unconditional Election: God has chosen to rescue the elect from sin simply because He wanted to. There was nothing, other than His own pleasure, that compelled Him to act on their behalf.
3) Limited Atonement: Christ’s redeeming work on the cross secured the atonement of the elect.
4) Irresistible Grace: All that Christ died for will come to saving faith in Christ by responding positively to the free gift of grace.
5) Perseverance of the Saints: Since salvation is by grace and not works, salvation cannot be lost through sinful deeds. The Spirit is given guaranteeing future grace, and He will also move His people toward maturity and Christlikeness.
6) Best World: The manner in which history unfolds is the best possible way for God to glorify Himself and the different facets of His character. If there were a way that God could glorify himself more, it would be in those circumstances that we would find ourselves; meaning there are no other better alternatives.
7) Double Predestination: God has chosen to glorify Himself through both the redemption of some and the damnation of others.
8) Good is God: God does not submit Himself to an external standard of good. Rather, God does as He pleases and that becomes the definition of “good”. Therefore, anything God chooses to do in the exercise of His sovereign will is good.
9) Ordination of All Things: Because everything God does is good, He is Holy in the way He oversees and ordains the affairs of created beings. He has ordained both good and evil, righteousness and sinfulness. Satan, demons, and evil men act in accordance with the will of God. All things that happen on the earth happen for the display of the glory of His grace.
further…
1) Total Depravity: Man is so utterly sinful that he is incapable of responding to God apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit.
2) Unconditional Election: God has chosen to rescue the elect from sin simply because He wanted to. There was nothing, other than His own pleasure, that compelled Him to act on their behalf.
3) Limited Atonement: Christ’s redeeming work on the cross secured the atonement of the elect.
4) Irresistible Grace: All that Christ died for will come to saving faith in Christ by responding positively to the free gift of grace.
5) Perseverance of the Saints: Since salvation is by grace and not works, salvation cannot be lost through sinful deeds. The Spirit is given guaranteeing future grace, and He will also move His people toward maturity and Christlikeness.
6) Best World: The manner in which history unfolds is the best possible way for God to glorify Himself and the different facets of His character. If there were a way that God could glorify himself more, it would be in those circumstances that we would find ourselves; meaning there are no other better alternatives.
7) Double Predestination: God has chosen to glorify Himself through both the redemption of some and the damnation of others.
8) Good is God: God does not submit Himself to an external standard of good. Rather, God does as He pleases and that becomes the definition of “good”. Therefore, anything God chooses to do in the exercise of His sovereign will is good.
9) Ordination of All Things: Because everything God does is good, He is Holy in the way He oversees and ordains the affairs of created beings. He has ordained both good and evil, righteousness and sinfulness. Satan, demons, and evil men act in accordance with the will of God. All things that happen on the earth happen for the display of the glory of His grace.
I have never heard of 9 Point Calvinism. Calvin had 5 points because he was answering 5 points made by Arminius.
Personally, I feel that the acronym TULIP has great disadvantages, particularly the "L". "Limited Atonement" always gives the impression of fewness. I prefer the term "Particular Redemption."
Personally, I feel that the acronym TULIP has great disadvantages, particularly the "L". "Limited Atonement" always gives the impression of fewness. I prefer the term "Particular Redemption."
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And I have bad news for you: You came up empty again on why God would need to have faith. Oh...wait...is his faith in mankind? God trusts in mankind, does he? Here's from your favorite OT book:
Job 15:14-16
14 "What is man, that he could be pure,
or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?
15 If God places no trust in his holy ones,
if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,
16 how much less man, who is vile and corrupt,
who drinks up evil like water!
NIV
Okay...your turn. Go ahead and whip out your standard fallacy of composition retort to tell us that Eliphaz cannot be trusted in anything he says.
Job 15:14-16
14 "What is man, that he could be pure,
or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?
15 If God places no trust in his holy ones,
if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,
16 how much less man, who is vile and corrupt,
who drinks up evil like water!
NIV
Okay...your turn. Go ahead and whip out your standard fallacy of composition retort to tell us that Eliphaz cannot be trusted in anything he says.
I don't think any of them do. I believe that God is good. The bible teaches that. I don't believe in double predestination. I believe that when a sinner is saved, it is a result of God choosing to save him or her:
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:3-4 NKJV)
If someone is not saved, they certainly won't be able to blame God for it. They won't be able to claim, "Well, I wanted to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, but you didn't choose me, so I couldn't."
I don't believe that God needs to organise the world in a particular way to display His glory; the bible says He displays that in His Son:
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (Joh 1:14 NKJV)
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:3-4 NKJV)
If someone is not saved, they certainly won't be able to blame God for it. They won't be able to claim, "Well, I wanted to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, but you didn't choose me, so I couldn't."
I don't believe that God needs to organise the world in a particular way to display His glory; the bible says He displays that in His Son:
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (Joh 1:14 NKJV)
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Because faith in Christ comes supernaturally. It is birthed in an individual by the Spirit and the word of God.
There is a natural counterpart. People can hear the gospel, and have faith in their profession, faith in a process, faith in any number of things. But to be saved by grace through faith, one must be born from above.
One could argue that the church is full of professing believers who are encouraged to recite a "sinner's prayer" and told they are saved. And by the same power of the will they attempt to change their behavior and conform themselves to the image of Christ. And some who are very disciplined look very much like the genuine article; sometimes even more so than those who are truly saved but haven't learned to put on the new man. But unless God has done a work on the inside, the transformation is only outward and this will be seen to be so over time.
There is a natural counterpart. People can hear the gospel, and have faith in their profession, faith in a process, faith in any number of things. But to be saved by grace through faith, one must be born from above.
One could argue that the church is full of professing believers who are encouraged to recite a "sinner's prayer" and told they are saved. And by the same power of the will they attempt to change their behavior and conform themselves to the image of Christ. And some who are very disciplined look very much like the genuine article; sometimes even more so than those who are truly saved but haven't learned to put on the new man. But unless God has done a work on the inside, the transformation is only outward and this will be seen to be so over time.
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Do not forget to mention, too, that there are those here who claim that God revealing Himself in personal ways to people makes Him unfair, despite it being in actual fact God fulfilling multiple promises in drawing us with loving kindness. There are those too who claim God acting unilaterally makes Him a tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their will. Don't ask me where they get off making such despicable claims. It actually comes across as them hating God while they pretend to be doing Him favours. And still others asserting that everyone hears even though that runs counter to what the Bible actually teaches, also. His sheep hear.
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Would you agree with those who say that a person who does not choose Jesus when they becomes aware of Jesus, is choosing to reject Jesus? If not, why not?
Under five point Calvinism, can a person who is not saved reasonably argue to God "I was made without an ability to want and to choose Christ, and You chose not to give those to me during my lifetime" ? If not, why not?
I concede to you that "God is good" is an a priori premise, and not a derived premise. Although the nine-pointer statement appears to be "Good is God." What does "Good is God" mean?
Nine Point Calvinists are identical to Seven Point Calvinists, but also add two extra points to the list: 8. Good is God - Everything God does is good, because God is good, and good cannot be good apart from God. God and good are synonyms.
Under five point Calvinism, can a person who is not saved reasonably argue to God "I was made without an ability to want and to choose Christ, and You chose not to give those to me during my lifetime" ? If not, why not?
I concede to you that "God is good" is an a priori premise, and not a derived premise. Although the nine-pointer statement appears to be "Good is God." What does "Good is God" mean?
Nine Point Calvinists are identical to Seven Point Calvinists, but also add two extra points to the list: 8. Good is God - Everything God does is good, because God is good, and good cannot be good apart from God. God and good are synonyms.
PaulThomson said:
How can we have faith, without a faculty that allows us to believe? Why can't we use that same ability to believe, that you just acknowledged we have,, and focus that onto Christ when we hear the gospel? Why do we need a brand new faculty to do the same thing, but toward Christ.
So your answer to the question, "Why can't we use that same ability to believe, that you just acknowledged we have, and focus that onto Christ when we hear the gospel?" is "Because faith in Christ comes supernaturally. It is birthed in an individual by the Spirit and the word of God."
So, the reason why we can't use that same ability to believe, that you just acknowledged we have, and focus that onto Christ when we hear the gospel, is because you claim that faith in Christ comes supernaturally and is birthed in an individual by the Spirit and the word of God; and you think that means God can't use the ability to believe that He gave us when we were being formed in the womb. The omnipotent God can't use the ability to believe that He gave us as babies? How is your God omnipotent, if He can't do that?
How can we have faith, without a faculty that allows us to believe? Why can't we use that same ability to believe, that you just acknowledged we have,, and focus that onto Christ when we hear the gospel? Why do we need a brand new faculty to do the same thing, but toward Christ.
So your answer to the question, "Why can't we use that same ability to believe, that you just acknowledged we have, and focus that onto Christ when we hear the gospel?" is "Because faith in Christ comes supernaturally. It is birthed in an individual by the Spirit and the word of God."
So, the reason why we can't use that same ability to believe, that you just acknowledged we have, and focus that onto Christ when we hear the gospel, is because you claim that faith in Christ comes supernaturally and is birthed in an individual by the Spirit and the word of God; and you think that means God can't use the ability to believe that He gave us when we were being formed in the womb. The omnipotent God can't use the ability to believe that He gave us as babies? How is your God omnipotent, if He can't do that?
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If I thought you were truly interested, I might be inclined to discuss the material with you but if you were actually interested in finding it, you would find it yourself. It is the glory of God to hide a matter and the glory of kings to search it out. I will tell you that it says nothing about them waiting until He gives them faith.