so truly saved. as apposed to not really saved. is a bad thing?
lol.. thanks. I needed a good laugh
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lol.. thanks. I needed a good laugh
We are discussing what saves us from the penalty of sin. what has to happen for us to spend eternity in heaven.
the power and presence of God are a result of salvation. that is another topic altogether
ps. Still waiting. what work do I need to do?
Is that what happened of the forgiven servant in Matthew 18:21-35?
Was the servant being chastened?
You have to be reading past what I continually say in order to come up with this allegation.
Phil2:13 God is working (providing His capacity) in us both to will and to work... This is the basis of 2:12.
It's clear to me that God is not only providing His capacity for us to work what He commands us to work, but God is also providing His capacity so we can desire to work what He commands us to work.
I've made this clear several times.
He asked them a question. If they have begun in the spirit are they now being perfected in the flesh (works?)
He also asked them point blank, did they receive the spirit by works, or by Faith. (How do they think they got saved if they are saved)
I find it amazing. He is calling YOU out. (workers for salvation) yet you want us to think he was saying they could lose salvation.
wow!!!
its actually quite simple
Jesus gave us an example of what happens when he mentions the serpent which hung on the pole
everyone needed saved. they were as good as dead.
God had moses raise this thing on a pole. Those who believe lived, those who did not died.
Jesus said it is the same for us. Everyone is dead. we all must be born again.
So he will hang on a cross. Those who believe will live, those who do not will die.
He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is CONDEMENED ALREADY (they did not fall back into condemnation. they never left that state)
no works involved. period
could the servant pay for his sin debt? Could the servent save himself?
Why do you refuse to admit you can not save yourself. why do you insist on being like the pharisees?
No it does not. It never teaches a believer can commit the unforgivable sin and I challenge you to produce the scripture that teaches this. The only verse I know of says NOTHING about believers. That's just what YOU bring to the text, not pull from it. Bottom line.
Actually, this is mind-boggling. The semantic range? Salvation means salvation. It's really just that simple. Then comes context.
How many times have you read me say in this thread things like, were saved - being saved - will be saved? This is the language of the Text re: the word "save" when reviewed in all of its tenses.
The specific words in the Word are there for a reason.
The problem here is that some of you think you need to change the inspired Text to protect your theological constructs you were raised under, as was I, then I studied the Word of God.
Do you believe Salvation is a process or a onetime event or a future event or some combination of the three or all of the three or?
Again, IMO "works salvation" is a mess of opinions, emotions, theological constructs of men, poor exegesis, and in fairness to all, an obviously tough topic to discuss and to deal with in the Text. Look at all of the considerations being brought up here from (and some not from) Scripture; lose vs. can't lose; walk away vs. can't walk away; believed vs. never believed; truly believed vs. believed; the extent of the meaning and topic of sealing, rewards, wages, etc., etc., etc.
My decision long ago was to reject the constructs and the traditions - all of them - and rest in my belief of who Jesus is and the fact that He is YHWH"s Christ, YHWH's King, the only absolute ruler to whom all knees shall bow (including mine willingly in Christ in Spirit) etc., etc., and just sit and study His Word as it's written, and let Him work in me to provide His capacity to will and work what He commands. I, like all of us, am a work in progress within the Process of His Salvation Plan with all of its benchmarks and goals until salvation future when we will be like Him because we'll see Him as He is (which is some very interesting language in itself).
I think I have a pretty decent understanding of the Salvation Process as it's written. I studied and taught for some years every instance of the word "save" in all of its parsing in our Text. I know why I don't change the language of Phil2:12 and why I have zero problems with being commanded to accomplish my SALVATION with fear and trembling...
I also know and studied before we could find others on the internet who have done likewise every form of language in the NC that is imperatival - a command. Without pulling up that work, as I recall, there are just below 600 commands to Christians just in the Epistles. IMO each and every one of them is important as is every word in the Word properly and accurately understood. This is just some of the reason I attempt to pull fellow believers into actually working in Scripture. More often than not the process is to set the Scripture aside or deal with it casually while letting the made-up constructs and accusations fly.
As I said, what a mess.
How about eternal judgement?
“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:5-11 NIV
your saying this is just encouragement and isn’t about someone’s eternal inheritance whether this
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. “
or this
for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; “
The second group isn’t justified they are subjects of wrath because of thier deeds and works and actions
there are necessary principles about faith like for instance this baseline understanding about God
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
Hebrews 11:6
It’s also Whether good of bad
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11
belief saves us but it needs to be belief in what he actually said and promised in who he really is and what he really has done and said in the gospel . That requires a lot of us however as we grow into it . God is a rewarder of those who seek him
Saved from what... that is the context.
So then you do not believe "spiritual salvation" is a one time event?
This would most definitely make a mess of scripture, agree.
I'll focus here and not comment on the other parts for the moment. This is where your analogy goes off track. In the language of Scripture - being saved - is progressive just as is growth from infancy to maturity and then beyond maturity.
When salvation is taught in its past, present and future tenses by some teachers, the progressive and continuous present - being saved - is taught by some as being saved from the power of sin. Your verses from Peter convey this. As we grow in Christ in Spirit, we sin less and less - we're being saved from the power of sin.
God's children under the hand of a perfect, loving Father, must be and are disciplined as they are growing. This discipline is lessened as growth takes place. Within such analogy is the Biblical concept of being progressively saved from the power of sin. We're given the instruction - the command - tested in it - disciplined as necessary until His command is our will and work and sin/deviation/
disobedience to whatever degree is no longer a part of us. Train a child in the way he should go....
So, yes, Biblically speaking, a child does become more saved, and I can then work with the last part of your sentence.
The passage isn't talking about getting saved. It is talking about how we should live as those who have been saved. This is the plain meaning of the passage. Work out your salvation suggests that salvation has already been acquired and needs to adjusted to what God is doing.
Likely agree but I'll again go back to John6:27 and to other topics like Faith correlated to obedience, how and when grace was applied pursuant to Rom8 and 11, works of law, etc., in order to clarify what are and what are not works that create debt.
Answers interlineated.
No, the servant could not pay the debt before it was forgiven and the servant could not pay the debt after the forgiveness was taken away.
I do not believe I can save myself nor do I remember making such a statement. I am nothing like the Pharisees.
I have now answered 4 of your questions. Will you please answer one of mine?
Post# 784
Is that what happened of the forgiven servant in Matthew 18:21-35?
Was the servant being chastened?
There is a correlation of faith and works: faith begets works...Ephesians 2:8-10.
Since you fear working any deeper in John6 and Phil2 and attempt to cover with dumb accusations your fear and inability to understand what I've said about those verses, I'll give you the same answers from a different angle:
Assuming you're not a Christian, then you need to work to hear and learn God's Good News that Jesus is the Christ and know what "Christ" means, so you can believe what God teaches and be in submission to Him and to His Son Jesus Christ whom He sent and be given the gift of salvation and eternal life. Prior to this I'd likely also want to discuss Rom1 and see where you are with acceptance or rejection of the knowledge of God which He gave you about Himself.
Assuming you are a Christian created for good works, then you have to be working with God in the Salvation Process as He commands His Children to do.
Then we discuss such things as believed vs. never believed, and security and wages and rewards vs. apostasy. And so on...