The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[GWH]

for it is by grace we have been saved (a completed action) through faith.

I was saved by grace, I recieved the grace gift in faith

Since I was not saved by faith. I can not lose salvation because I lack faith (even if we are faithless, he remains faithful)

You can;t persevere to the end. Gods requirment is perfection. You have falled short. you and I are falling short. and we will always fall short.

so what are we enduring? continuing to fall short?

enduring is what we do here on earth.. to recieve a reward.. Thos in the great tribulation who endure till christ returns will be saved physically

enduring is NEVER used on context of eternal salvation

1. Re "for it is by grace we have been saved (a completed action) through faith. I was saved by grace, I recieved the grace gift in faith
Since I was not saved by faith.": Yes, we are saved BY God THROUGH faith (in EPH 2:8 but BY faith in RM 3:28).

2. Re "I can not lose salvation because I lack faith (even if we are faithless, he remains faithful)": 2TM 2:11-13 says,
"If we died with him, we will also live with him; [meaning we have saving faith and will go to heaven]
IF we endure, we will also reign with him. [meaning that saving faith must persevere in order for us to go to heaven]
If we disown him, he will also disown us; [meaning if we commit apostasy, God will cancel our salvation]
If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself." [meaning that God is not to blame for apostasy. This
interpretation is supported by RM 3:3-6, which speaks of God's wrath toward unfaithful Jews.]

3. Re "You can;t persevere to the end. Gods requirment is perfection. You have falled short. you and I are falling short. and we will always fall short." GRFS is saving faith through/by which we are spiritually circumcised and credited as sharing the righteousness of Christ (RM 4:1-3).

4. Re "so what are we enduring? continuing to fall short? enduring is what we do here on earth.. to recieve a reward.. Thos in the great tribulation who endure till christ returns will be saved physically enduring is NEVER used on context of eternal salvation there you have it": There you disagree with the 16 Scriptures teaching that perseverance is necessary for salvation cited previously.

5. Re "faith is a one time event, and salvation is forever. Faith is also an ongoing event, of which salvation does not depend on.": Saving faith begins at the one time event called repentance/conversion and ongoes as a lifelong process called sanctification.

6. Re "We can not agree if you think we can lose salvation.": Well good, because I do not think that, so we can agree
(if you agree with GW in #1-5 :^)

 

[HeIsHere]

Last I heard. He prunes us when we do not abide. he lifts us up (or as the word said cut off)

But one thing he does not do is leave nor forsake us

Amen, the loving vine dresser.

 

[Musicmaster]

I like the fact he said he is through with this thread. yet he continues.

lol

When we are not men of our word, then our word isn't worth much...

MM

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Simply the clearest doctrine in Scripture is our eternal security. Every verse needs to be read through that light. The loss of salvation crowd will PIT other verses(more ambiguous) against them.

1 Peter 1:23 KJV
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 5:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 10:28-29
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

so clear. Yet so hard for many to understand

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We are not saved by works they say…but saving faith will produce works they say…but if you don’t have works then that just goes to show you were never saved they say…therefore, they are making works essential.

Not at all thier position is Jesus taught “ salvation by works “ or this different “ kingdom gospel “ and Paul then taught a conditionless Gospel called the gospel of Grace and that’s the “ real “ gospel the one that says “ don’t believe what Jesus said about saving your souls just forget all that your saved by grace you don’t need to do anything , you’ll never be judged for what you do …..

notice the phrase “ rightly divide the word of truth “ it’s used in order to create a second gospel after removing the one that Jesus sent to all people offering salvation removing all “ actions” we are supposed to take from the equation for i stance “ you don’t need to repent and get baptized now your already saved by grace not works you ever need to do now .

the position your facing is the juxtaposition “ I have faith therefore I don’t need to obey anything God said will save my soul I’m already saved by his unwarranted favor and nothing I do right or wrong can e er change it

It’s like if we’re Moses

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt. And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭

but I come along telling you before you lift up your hand as God said and then promised a miraculous result ….” if you think you need to lift your hand up Moses that’s a work and your trying to save yourself that’s not faith God will do it whether you lift up your hand or not “

So for Instance Jesus said of salvation

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But you’re discussing with people who have divided this out of sal actuon and then created a salvation that’s literally nothing you don’t do anything . Your either pre selected by God to be saved or condemned if you do good it’s going to be God doing it for you and tbrough you , if you do evil it’s only because God ordained you as an o je tof his eternal wrath so he would t punish his chosen who sinned like you did instead , he just created people who could never be saved to punish Because they had no choice

truly you have entered another dimension one of mystery and intruige one of ……the twilight zone.


ultimately the design is just to eliminate the things Jesus and his apostles actually said will save and also condemn our souls . Then Tell you I’ve rightly divided the word of truth and you just don’t get it because you actually read the scriptures and believe what they are saying

it’s an endless loop this “ rightly divided gospel of grace “ because it requires one to reject the gospel Jesus sent out to all creatures promising salvation . And “then accept thier sectetly rightly divided word of truth and salvation “


But we’re warned thoroughly about it

 

[Kroogz]

so clear. Yet so hard for many to understand

John 5:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

So clear. And this verse adds a HUGE emphasis to it. This is basically The Lord Jesus Christ grabbing us by the shirt collar, putting his nose to our nose and saying, " Listen up, this is a point of doctrine that is very IMPORTANT and it will be attacked by the kingdom of darkness!!"

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

John 5:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

So clear. And this verse adds a HUGE emphasis to it. This is basically The Lord Jesus Christ grabbing us by the shirt collar, putting his nose to our nose and saying, " Listen up, this is a point of doctrine that is very IMPORTANT and it will be attacked by the kingdom of darkness!!"

yet people still want to try to save themselves. or think they are good enough.

 

[Believer08]

Paul said he kept the faith (2 Tim. 4:7). Jesus says to remain in Him (Jn. 15:5-5, 6). John mentions about seeing what you have heard from the beginning remains in you (1 Jn. 2:24). Jesus said continue in my word (Jn. 8). We are also said to remain faithful to Jesus (Rev.14:12).

There is a huge issue in believing you don’t have to do anything to remain saved. It allows people to live in sin, and then they are told they were never saved lol…and it causes people to think they are earning salvation by obeying Jesus.
Yet…what does one have to do in order not to be considered “never truly saved”? The same thing people accuse others: Having a working faith of obedience to God. If one does not, they’ll be considered “never saved”, thus proving that you are having to do something to remain saved. Either that, or it’s live like the devil. Take your pick lol.

 

[studier]

yet people still want to try to save themselves. or think they are good enough.

What does this mean?

Will you elaborate?

What constitutes a man trying to save himself?

Does your last clause mean they think they are good enough to be saved?

Do you see salvation as a one-time event or a process entered into and lived out to completion?

Apologies if you've already made this clear somewhere. If you have and can point me back to even get me close, then I'll read there.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Paul said he kept the faith (2 Tim. 4:7). Jesus says to remain in Him (Jn. 15:5-5, 6). John mentions about seeing what you have heard from the beginning remains in you (1 Jn. 2:24). Jesus said continue in my word (Jn. 8). We are also said to remain faithful to Jesus (Rev.14:12).

There is a huge issue in believing you don’t have to do anything to remain saved. It allows people to live in sin, and then they are told they were never saved lol…and it causes people to think they are earning salvation by obeying Jesus.
Yet…what does one have to do in order not to be considered “never truly saved”? The same thing people accuse others: Having a working faith of obedience to God. If one does not, they’ll be considered “never saved”, thus proving that you are having to do something to remain saved. Either that, or it’s live like the devil. Take your pick lol.

This is plain and clearly a works based gospel

Keep trying to save yourself my friend. You will not achieve what you are trying to do. because no one can

 

[Jimbone]

Projection.

Nope, I point ALL glory to God, not Satanic at all. You want to usurp some of Gods glory to give yourself credit, like "you choose salvation" and "your decisions in obedience are what keep you saved", these things are inward thinking and try to claim the glory that belongs to God, the very definition of Satanic. You lift up men at Gods expense whether you admit it, or can even see it, or not. I'm telling you that's what you do. Your, "I know you are but what am I", response is weak and sad. I don't think it's worth sparring with someone so blind to their own mess. Good luck.

 

[Believer08]

Some options for the people like Everlasting Grace

1) You were never saved

2) You can like the devil and be saved

3) God holds you against your will, stripping you having the ability of any and all choices you want to make if it causes you to be lost

4) If point number 3 is not fulfilled, then you will be told you were never saved.

Or…if you’re not told that…then you will be fulfilling point number 2…but doing that will be fulfilling point number 1.

5) The only other choice is God having you to be a robot once you are saved…only programmed to do what He tells you to do…

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What does this mean?

Will you elaborate?

What constitutes a man trying to save himself?

Does your last clause mean they think they are good enough to be saved?

Salvation is a gift. it is not a reward.

You work to earn a wage, or a reward. a gift is freely given.

I am not sure why it seems so difficult. If I am doing any type of work to earn my salvation. To keep my salvation, or keep my from losing my salvation. I deem salvation as a reward for good deeds or a wage. not as a gift.

Do you see salvation as a one-time event or a process entered into and lived out to completion?

I see salvation as three things

1. I have been saved (justified - I have been redeemed by the blood and thus saved from the penalty of sin and am a child of God and I have eternal life forever)
2. I am being saved (Sanctification - I am being saved from the power of sin as I learn to trust God in different areas of my life, and I grow - also called christian growth, this is an ongoing until I am resurected)
3. I will be saved from the ability of sin and from this dead body. also called glorification, when I am made completely whole in him at my ressurection.

Apologies if you've already made this clear somewhere. If you have and can point me back to even get me close, then I'll read there.

no biggy

 

[Kroogz]

Paul said he kept the faith (2 Tim. 4:7). Jesus says to remain in Him (Jn. 15:5-5, 6). John mentions about seeing what you have heard from the beginning remains in you (1 Jn. 2:24). Jesus said continue in my word (Jn. 8). We are also said to remain faithful to Jesus (Rev.14:12).

If we don't keep the faith. If we don't remain in Him. If we don't continue in His word........We will question the veracity of our salvation.

The Faith is The Lord Jesus Christ saving us......If we stray from this truth, our whole lives will be filled with doubt.

THE FAITH~~Eternal life. Never perish. No condemnation. Nothing separates us from Him. We are sealed with the same seal as the Son.


If we don't keep the faith......The belief of loss of salvation will creep in.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Some options for the people like Everlasting Grace

1) You were never saved

Your saved or your not, your stuck on this never saved bit and can't get out of your own way

2) You can like the devil and be saved

A child of God can nto love in sin, See 1 John chapter 3. You have been shown this, but sadly, like your "never saved' argument, you refuse to see what others have shown you

3) God holds you against your will, stripping you having the ability of any and all choices you want to make if it causes you to be lost

Spoken like a true person who has never met God. who think you would even have the remote possibility of even thinking to repent back to where you were before God gave you the greatest gift of all time..

4) If point number 3 is not fulfilled, then you will be told you were never saved.

Again, Back to your strawman.

this is getting old dude. i feel like I am beating a dead horse.

Or…if you’re not told that…then you will be fulfilling point number 2…but doing that will be fulfilling point number 1.

Yada Yada Yada.. Typical of people who really have no argument, they start using word salads (like that term) to try to make themselves look better

5) The only other choice is God having you to be a robot once you are saved…only programmed to do what He tells you to do…

Spoken like a true modern day pharisee pumping his chest to tell the world thank God he is not like the sinner..

 

[Jimbone]

We are not saved by works they say…but saving faith will produce works they say…but if you don’t have works then that just goes to show you were never saved they say…therefore, they are making works essential.

The things of the Spirit are foolishness to those who are perishing.

Why can you not understand the simple truth that we don't do works FOR salvation, we do them AS A RESULT OF salvation. The only way this can be so elusive to you is if you were never saved yet. It's really this simple and I've seen you struggle with understanding this for weeks now. It's 101 truth.

 

[Kroogz]

5) The only other choice is God having you to be a robot once you are saved…only programmed to do what He tells you to do…

Absolutely not. Have you forgotten about the discipline of God? He will, if needed, destroy our flesh and take us home before our time if we don't follow His plan for our lives.

AND. We potentially lose ETERNAL rewards....No small matter.

Just no loss of salvation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If we don't keep the faith. If we don't remain in Him. If we don't continue in His word........We will question the veracity of our salvation.

The Faith is The Lord Jesus Christ saving us......If we stray from this truth, our whole lives will be filled with doubt.

THE FAITH~~Eternal life. Never perish. No condemnation. Nothing separates us from Him. We are sealed with the same seal as the Son.


If we don't keep the faith......The belief of loss of salvation will creep in.

praise God it is on him, not us.. Satan wants us to doubt..

 

[BillG]

John 6:39-40
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Romans 8:33-34
33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

John 6:39-40
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Romans 8:33-34
33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

does not get any clearer than this Brother