Understanding God’s election

[studier]

Here is the result of my previous study of the teachings of Jesus:

Thanks.

 

[PaulThomson]

It is said by the "great shall be the peace of thy children". Their peace shall be great because they learned which gives them understanding, and therefore, their peace will be great. It is one continuous thought within the verse.

[Isa 54:13 KJV] 13 And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children.

This does not say that only "thy children" shall be taught of the LORD. Others may be taught of the LORD who do not become "thy children" because they do not learn what is taught. This does not say that all who are taught, learn. It says that all those who are taught and find peace from what they hear (presumably by learning what is taught), are "thy children".

 

[Cameron143]

The meaning of the words someone speaks are what they intend at the time they are speaking. Jesus was speaking in an historical context to real people during actual events.

Jesus may speak those same words to me today through His Word as I read them or remember them. And to me, for whom Jesus is now present only in Spirit, "Come to Me all you who labour" may have a different nuance than they did to the original audience for whom, Jesus was present in flesh. But it is a logical fallacy of presentism to take present meaning of some statement or actions and assume we can overlay those meanings onto events that were happening, and words that were being spoken, two thousand years ago. It's the same mistake people make when they impose our political and moral attitudes to slavery or women's rights onto first century Christians and judge them morally for not holding to the standards we have now.

It is a logical fallacy to assume that Jesus' words to His first century audiences meant exactly the same to them as they do when jesus speaks them to us by His Spirit.

Sometimes, Jesus' words were only for a person in Jesus' day. For instance, Jesus is not commanding you to go and collect a donkey so that He can ride into Jerusalem. Bible verses are not all timelessly true metaphysical propositions that we can take and literally apply to all times and all places.

So...rather than answer my question, you obfuscate.

We understand context and garner meaning from setting, but biblical truth has application for all. Otherwise, nothing Jesus said while on earth in flesh is binding upon us. For that matter, very little in the Bible has any entreaty for us today because we aren't specifically addressed.
Further, simply getting in proximity to Jesus doesn't mean one was there because God was drawing or had given to the Son of the Father.

Do you make it a practice to love others as Christ has loved you? Jesus never spoke those words to you, but I'm guessing you take that command to heart.

 

[Seasons]

God bless

 

[GWH]

Can anyone truly, sincerely and genuinely "come to Christ" apart from God-given, God-enabled faith, any more than anyone can truly, sincerely and genuinely confess that Jesus is Lord and mean it apart from the enabling power of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3)?

Second question: Why would the Father feel the need to enable anyone to come to his Son if sinners intrinsically have that kind enabling power with themselves (v. 65)?

Third question: If God truly enables people to come to Jesus in faith, does this kind of enabling power imply a specific saving purpose that God had for such people who were so enabled, or does God just randomly or arbitrarily select such people? And if the latter is true, what is God's purpose in his hit 'n' miss, modest success rate endeavors? Wouldn't it have been better for God, who alleges to be all-powerful, all-wise, all-knowing to sit out man's salvation problems on the sidelines rather than embarrass himself with such modest returns for his efforts? But if the former is true, then can anyone thwart God's purposes (Job 42:2)?

I see that what was posted on another thread is relevant to your third question:

"Why would God create/make someone if He already knows they are going to choose to be evil and go to hell?"

Because He did not want the foolishness of some souls who choose a just hell and then eternal destruction to prevent the eternal joy of those who choose to be righteous in Christ and go to heaven.

 

[rogerg]

This does not say that only "thy children" shall be taught of the LORD. Others may be taught of the LORD who do not become "thy children" because they do not learn what is taught. This does not say that all who are taught, learn. It says that all those who are taught and find peace from what they hear (presumably by learning what is taught), are "thy children".

I'm not sure that I completely follow your reasoning, sorry my fault. But I believe that within context of Isa 54, only those that have become saved are taught by God and learn, and no others. Therefore, I believe the reverse of what you stated above: they can only learn BECAUSE they already are His children, made so by God - they do not become His children because they've learned; that is, only His children, those saved/born again, can learn because only they have been indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

 

[GWH]

I am claiming that Jesus and Paul taught that saving faith is persevering faith:

TOJ #60: Stand firm to the end. [MT 10:17-22] This passage teaches the need for perseverance rather than choosing to commit apostasy (Lesson 2). We must accept the risk of being rejected by anti-Christians without letting it quench our enthusiasm {MT 24:13, MK 13:13}. Luke’s wording seems to imply a temporal benefit {LK 21:18-19}. In John’s gospel the need for perseverance (and implicitly the possibility of apostasy) is indicated by the phrase “remain in me” {JN 15:4-10}.

TOP #20: Those who persevere in seeking God’s salvation will receive eternal life. [RM 2:7-8&10, cf. 3:22-24 & 6:23b] Paul explains in detail that seeking to earn salvation by obeying moral law perfectly is impossible, so we should accept God’s plan of salvation (POS) via faith in the Gospel of Christ’s atonement.

TOP #29: The HS’s love while suffering produces perseverance and moral character. [RM 5:3-5] Without God’s love believers would lose hope and fail to keep on believing and developing moral maturity.

TOP #72: Scripture was written to teach us to persevere in the hope of salvation. [RM 15:4-5a] Paul states this truth more fully in 2TM 3:14-17.

TOP #116: Stand firm in doing the Lord’s work. [1CR 15:58 & 16:13] Such perseverance is a major theme in the writings of Paul, always implied and often specified, and so it warrants a second citing in terms of standing firm to augment the mention of persistence in TOP #20 (RM 2:7&10).

TOP #134: Continue to be free of the law by having faith in Christ so that you will not be “alienated” and become “fallen away from grace”. [GL 5:1-5] This indicates the possibility of apostasy or intentionally repudiating saving faith (cf. HB 6:4-6).

TOP #182: Conduct consistent with Christian faith begins with perseverance and spiritual unity. [PHP 1:27-28] This truth is like TOP #155 but combines two main themes in the TOP (cf. #134 & 64).

TOP #200: God’s salvation is conditional upon persevering faith in the Gospel. [COL 1: 22-23, 2TM 2:11-13] These verses are part of the doctrine of perseverance implied by the kerygma, because it is necessary in order to achieve TOP such as #191 & #195 (cf. TOP #182 & 211).

TOP #225: From the beginning God chose to save those who believed the true Gospel and thus received the Spirit who sanctifies them as they persevere in learning GW. [2THS 2:13-17&3:5] Such sanctification involves being encouraged. This teaching adds to #210 by connecting GW and HS to the Gospel truth and persevering sanctification (#211&220).

TOP #234: Christians may abandon their faith or commit apostasy if they are deceived by demons. [1TM 4:1] This is why the need for perseverance is an implicit part of the Gospel (TOP #20, 29, 50, 72, 99, 115, etc.).

I am studying the TOP and just encountered more relevant passages in Hebrews (which most folks think Paul wrote) to add.

TOP #263: Believers may commit apostasy. [HB 3:6-4:11, 6:4-6, 10:19-39] Apostates will never repent, and thus it must be the unpardonable blasphemy against the Holy Spirit referred to by Jesus in MT 12:31-32.

 

[Rufus]

I'll answer but will limit the distraction from the actual wording and understanding of John5-6. I've brought up several points in the Text that you have not responded to or have responded to with fallacious arguments.

No offense intended, but I'm used to remaining in textual issues in discussions like these or in researching issues like these. When we move out of the Text under consideration to start dealing with traditions and horizontal proposed ties, it normally just closes down and sidetracks from the textual issues not yet resolved.

I think it clear that you know my answer to this. At this point I see come to Jesus + faith in John6. You see come to Jesus = Faith in John6. And this is clear in your question and in the boldened words you've inserted into your question that are not stated in the Text. I understand your point but am sticking with what the Text tells us as I see it.



I don't know what you mean by emboldening "feel the need". It's nothing I've referred to.

I have said that since 6:44 speaks of a man not being able if God does not draw him, then God's drawing is also God's enabling. So, I do see that God enables a man to come to Jesus.

But you're also taking this into the realm of intrinsic power in sinners and I don't see this being discussed by Jesus in 6:44. I do see in 6:45 where Jesus bases what He's saying on Isaiah and God teaching and then saying what He does re: men hearing and learning. In these 2 verses apart from loading them with presuppositions, God's drawing/enabling simply looks to be God providing information and in the case of John6 having sent Jesus to personally do the teaching and validate Him in doing great works. An expected Prophet King was not foreign to these people. It seems to me Jesus was an amazing draw, and God saw fit to take care of men's physical needs as part of drawing/enabling them to possibly hear and learn and believe.

I'm going to respectfully pass for now on your 3rd paragraph. I've just answered some of the presuppositions I see there as I begin to read it.

Question two has nothing to do with what you personally have referred to per se since your return to this forum. However, if I recall correctly from your last visit, you did not believe God's saving grace is effectual. Hence, the the question. You do acknowledge that God "enables" people to come to Jesus, but do people have the power to wreck that "enabling power" of God. Can they in fact, successfully resist God's giving and his drawing of them to the Son, and thus have the last word in their eternal destiny?

Re question 1: Jesus in Mat 11:28 issues an invitation for spiritual rest, which I take as an offer of eternal salvation but I stand to be corrected if you understand the text differently and you can make a compelling case that opposes my view. Anyhow...this invitation begins with "COME to ME all you who are weary and heavy burdened...". Do you think Jesus meant in this text that those who are qualified to come to him (Jesus himself qualified the offer with his words I highlighted!) that they come in faith? If not, then what kind of rest exactly was Jesus promising if not eternal rest in the visible kingdom that is coming?

 

[Rufus]

This does not say that only "thy children" shall be taught of the LORD. Others may be taught of the LORD who do not become "thy children" because they do not learn what is taught. This does not say that all who are taught, learn. It says that all those who are taught and find peace from what they hear (presumably by learning what is taught), are "thy children".

To whom is the Lord speaking through his prophet? Who precisely is the prophet's original audience?

 

[studier]

Question two has nothing to do with what you personally have referred to per se since your return to this forum. However, if I recall correctly from your last visit, you did not believe God's saving grace is effectual. Hence, the the question. You do acknowledge that God "enables" people to come to Jesus, but do people have the power to wreck that "enabling power" of God. Can they in fact, successfully resist God's giving and his drawing of them to the Son, and thus have the last word in their eternal destiny?

Re question 1: Jesus in Mat 11:28 issues an invitation for spiritual rest, which I take as an offer of eternal salvation but I stand to be corrected if you understand the text differently and you can make a compelling case that opposes my view. Anyhow...this invitation begins with "COME to ME all you who are weary and heavy burdened...". Do you think Jesus meant in this text that those who are qualified to come to him (Jesus himself qualified the offer with his words I highlighted!) that they come in faith? If not, then what kind of rest exactly was Jesus promising if not eternal rest in the visible kingdom that is coming?

Sticking with GJohn vs. interpretive traditions, do you see a man's will involved in coming to Jesus? FWIW, this is a decent translation and "not willing" is the same word typically found in the Text to speak of the will of God and of men.

NKJ John 5:40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.​

​

BTW, I was just going through 6:44-47 in detail again and then in big steps through the end of the chapter. I came to see more clearly than I had how important 6:46 is in the flow of what Jesus is saying. It strengthens my current view of Come + Faith vs. Come = Faith which I used to think was correct.

I'm also laughing in appreciation of how Jesus is both shoring up the believing in Him requirement while also setting up and then handling the Judeans in 6:48 on.

Such a great chapter!

 

[Rufus]

Sticking with GJohn vs. interpretive traditions, do you see a man's will involved in coming to Jesus? FWIW, this is a decent translation and "not willing" is the same word typically found in the Text to speak of the will of God and of men.

NKJ John 5:40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.​

​

BTW, I was just going through 6:44-47 in detail again and then in big steps through the end of the chapter. I came to see more clearly than I had how important 6:46 is in the flow of what Jesus is saying. It strengthens my current view of Come + Faith vs. Come = Faith which I used to think was correct.

I'm also laughing in appreciation of how Jesus is both shoring up the believing in Him requirement while also setting up and then handling the Judeans in 6:48 on.

Such a great chapter!

The better question would be: Since so many in the world are unwilling to believe (like the Pharisees in John 5), could this be the reason God, evidently, saw the need to give and draw men to Christ, since all that he gives will come to his Son and his Son will none and he promised to raise them up [to life] on the last day? After all, Jn 6:37 does say in part that "All the Father gives to me WILL come to me..."

Seems to me that Jn 5:40 and 6:37 are great companion verses that at once are contrasting, yet at the same time are paradoxically complementary. Whaddya think?

Now just remember something please, you were the one who brought John 5 into the Bread of Life of Discourse of the next chapter. Since you opened that door, don't be upset with me down the road if I should use any verse from chapter 5 to make and support any argument I make.

Have a good evening, sir....

 

[PaulThomson]

So...rather than answer my question, you obfuscate.

We understand context and garner meaning from setting, but biblical truth has application for all. Otherwise, nothing Jesus said while on earth in flesh is binding upon us. For that matter, very little in the Bible has any entreaty for us today because we aren't specifically addressed.
Further, simply getting in proximity to Jesus doesn't mean one was there because God was drawing or had given to the Son of the Father.

Do you make it a practice to love others as Christ has loved you? Jesus never spoke those words to you, but I'm guessing you take that command to heart.

As Jesus said, "The letter kills but the Spirit gives life" and "The words I am speaking to you are Spirit and life."T

he Holy Spirit speaks certain biblical texts to me today in my walk with Jesus, and their meaning is nuanced according to my contemporary circumstances. The Spirit also explains to me how other texts are teaching me lessons that I am to take to heart so that I adjust my behaviour to be more godly and like Christlike.

Jesus has spoken to me those words: that I should love others and He has loved me. He does so today by His Holy Spirit.

 

[studier]

The better question would be: Since so many in the world are unwilling to believe (like the Pharisees in John 5), could this be the reason God, evidently, saw the need to give and draw men to Christ, since all that he gives will come to his Son and his Son will none and he promised to raise them up [to life] on the last day? After all, Jn 6:37 does say in part that "All the Father gives to me WILL come to me..."

Seems to me that Jn 5:40 and 6:37 are great companion verses that at once are contrasting, yet at the same time are paradoxically complementary. Whaddya think?

Now just remember something please, you were the one who brought John 5 into the Bread of Life of Discourse of the next chapter. Since you opened that door, don't be upset with me down the road if I should use any verse from chapter 5 to make and support any argument I make.

Have a good evening, sir....

Here's the verse again: NKJ 6:40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

My question was a good one pertaining to the wording of the verse. Do you see man's will involved in coming to Jesus?

I brought in John5:40 because the discussion in John6 has involved coming to Jesus. I'm encamped here for now.

 

[PaulThomson]

I'm not sure that I completely follow your reasoning, sorry my fault. But I believe that within context of Isa 54, only those that have become saved are taught by God and learn, and no others. Therefore, I believe the reverse of what you stated above: they can only learn BECAUSE they already are His children, made so by God - they do not become His children because they've learned; that is, only His children, those saved/born again, can learn because only they have been indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

The text does not indicate at which stage the taught become "your children": whether they become "your children" as a result of being taught, or whether they were taught because they were already "your children. So, it is unsound to insist that only those who are already "your children" will be taught. All we know is that those who are "your children" were taught. We don't know whether those who were not "your children" were taught as well.

You read it like that because you are imposing LOUPI onto the text, rather than drawing from the text exactly what it says and preserving the logical limitations of the language used. Until you can set aside your LOUPI presuppositions before approaching the text, you will only be able to see LOUPI-conforming doctrines in the text.

 

[PaulThomson]

To whom is the Lord speaking through his prophet? Who precisely is the prophet's original audience?

The LORD seems to me to be speaking to the newly born Jewish Christian church of AD 33, and "your children" are their converts from among both the Jewish and the Gentile nations.

 

[Cameron143]

As Jesus said, "The letter kills but the Spirit gives life" and "The words I am speaking to you are Spirit and life."T

he Holy Spirit speaks certain biblical texts to me today in my walk with Jesus, and their meaning is nuanced according to my contemporary circumstances. The Spirit also explains to me how other texts are teaching me lessons that I am to take to heart so that I adjust my behaviour to be more godly and like Christlike.

Jesus has spoken to me those words: that I should love others and He has loved me. He does so today by His Holy Spirit.

So it means exactly to you what it meant to those who originally heard it. So does...come unto me.

 

[PaulThomson]

Can anyone truly, sincerely and genuinely "come to Christ" apart from God-given, God-enabled faith, any more than anyone can truly, sincerely and genuinely confess that Jesus is Lord and mean it apart from the enabling power of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3)?

Second question: Why would the Father feel the need to enable anyone to come to his Son if sinners intrinsically have that kind enabling power with themselves (v. 65)?

Third question: If God truly enables people to come to Jesus in faith, does this kind of enabling power imply a specific saving purpose that God had for such people who were so enabled, or does God just randomly or arbitrarily select such people? And if the latter is true, what is God's purpose in his hit 'n' miss, modest success rate endeavors? Wouldn't it have been better for God, who alleges to be all-powerful, all-wise, all-knowing to sit out man's salvation problems on the sidelines rather than embarrass himself with such modest returns for his efforts? But if the former is true, then can anyone thwart God's purposes (Job 42:2)?

Can any unbeliever truly and genuinely give his wife a bunch of flowers apart from God-given, God-enabled body-movements?

Can any unbeliever truly and genuinely say "I love you", to his wife apart from God-given, God-enabled speech?

Can any unbeliever truly and genuinely murder his wife apart from God-given, God-enabled faculties?

Everything anyone does is through God-given and God enabled faculties.

However, there is no logic in assuming that only doing good things uses God-given and God enabled faculties, but doing evil does not require or use the very same God-given and God-enabled faculties as were involved in doing good.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
As Jesus said, "The letter kills but the Spirit gives life" and "The words I am speaking to you are Spirit and life."T

he Holy Spirit speaks certain biblical texts to me today in my walk with Jesus, and their meaning is nuanced according to my contemporary circumstances. The Spirit also explains to me how other texts are teaching me lessons that I am to take to heart so that I adjust my behaviour to be more godly and like Christlike.

Jesus has spoken to me those words: that I should love others and He has loved me. He does so today by His Holy Spirit.

So it means exactly to you what it meant to those who originally heard it. So does...come unto me.

I don't understand how you get from my post above to your final conclusion.

 

[brightfame52]

@PaulThomson

Others may be taught of the LORD who do not become "thy children" because they do not learn what is taught.

False, no biblical support for such a assertion, and is a insult to God and His Ability!

 

[GWH]

Question two has nothing to do with what you personally have referred to per se since your return to this forum. However, if I recall correctly from your last visit, you did not believe God's saving grace is effectual. Hence, the the question. You do acknowledge that God "enables" people to come to Jesus, but do people have the power to wreck that "enabling power" of God. Can they in fact, successfully resist God's giving and his drawing of them to the Son, and thus have the last word in their eternal destiny?

Re question 1: Jesus in Mat 11:28 issues an invitation for spiritual rest, which I take as an offer of eternal salvation but I stand to be corrected if you understand the text differently and you can make a compelling case that opposes my view. Anyhow...this invitation begins with "COME to ME all you who are weary and heavy burdened...". Do you think Jesus meant in this text that those who are qualified to come to him (Jesus himself qualified the offer with his words I highlighted!) that they come in faith? If not, then what kind of rest exactly was Jesus promising if not eternal rest in the visible kingdom that is coming?

Yes, all folks are created in God's image, which means having moral free will, and thus are enabled by God to either cooperate with His POS or (ship)wreck their destiny, and the following lament is for the latter souls, (which I copied from the Apologetics thread):

I conclude the logical reasoning for choosing to have faith in Jesus that I have shared in this thread with a lament for Jerusalem (atheists per JN 8:42-47) cited by both Jesus and Paul when they were frustrated by the dearth of converts to their preaching of the Gospel.

Lament for Jerusalem

“You will be ever hearing, but never understanding,
You will be ever seeing, but never perceiving,
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
They hardly hear with their ears,
And they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And turn, and I would heal them.”

(Matthew 13:14-15 and Acts 28:26-27, quoting Isaiah 6:9-10,
cf. Matthew 23:37 )