Applying God's Word to Politics

[Eli1]

Why take this to such extremes? They always exist. Yet there are many who do much deeper analysis of the Text and reason much more deeply than cherry-picking verses.

Much of the self-correcting you speak of has come about due to Christian influences over the centuries. The same goes for the self-correcting within Christendom. Or is any of this self-correcting apart from God's involvement and influence?

If we were to remove our light from the political arena then all we've done is remove the influence of light from a major global arena. As stated earlier, where did that get the USA? Where it got the USA is to be on the verge of becoming another nation with little to no light left in its government.

When Christians live out their beliefs personally, as families, in businesses and professions, and yes as participants in governments, there is simply more light shone. The whole evangelize only and be quiet about government is a bullying tactic forced upon a weakened church. Christ's and His true Ekklesia are not weak.

From what I'm seeing a new generation is standing up after the failure of much of a recent generation. I'm thankful they are. I'm fascinated to see where He leads them. Watching some of the new cabinet profess their faith in Jesus Christ as the basis for who they are is beyond refreshing. Watching Trump's obvious changed character after nearly being killed and watching his seriousness and resolve and speaking openly about God's involvement in his survival is also beautiful.

Have you ever thought about such things being evangelistic and light? Many have.

Oh yeah, of course i've thought about these ideas and the first thing that comes to mind are the saints throughout history who died and were tortured for Christ who were strong as steel in their faith without any weapons or any government support.
They had God's support. Many of them involve Miracles too.
Some of them changed History and the Roman empire.

But in NO WAY there were confused about some Earthly kingdom in their time.

 

[studier]

Oh yeah, of course i've thought about these ideas and the first thing that comes to mind are the saints throughout history who died and were tortured for Christ who were strong as steel in their faith without any weapons or any government support.
They had God's support. Many of them involve Miracles too.
Some of them changed History and the Roman empire.

But in NO WAY there were confused about some Earthly kingdom in their time.

Why do you take this to "some Earthly kingdom"? Are you not for the pursuit of spreading His Kingdom on the earth? I recall history where some of the strong in faith had in mind expanding His Kingdom.

Are you concerned that Trump and MAGA want to expand the Kingdom militarily? Even if some may, do you think this permeates the group?

I'll give you a personal observation I've been gathering over time and had refreshed this day. Until a few years ago I was very distanced from the world over the past 3 decades mostly studying and teaching. I did get involved to a limited degree in some political discussions where I voiced in relation to God and His standards.

More recently I've been watching some of the AI discussions and how men have such grand visions for mankind and the world. Some of this is for human health and physical wellness which seems to me a good thing. Honestly some of this is much more refreshing and fascinating watching men created in God's likeness use their God given capacities to explore and create and reform things that have been corrupted than it is watching Christians sit around and complain and hope for a rapture and argue if there will even be one.

There's a practical part of our Faith where believing men are changed to think and live by God's standards and openly speak about Him as our Savior while also being involved at working to make better lives for their families and neighbors. Honestly, I'm kind of weary of watching the defeated church assuming it's even His Ekklesia.

All arenas are opportunities for evangelizing by word and works. I think the more mature and properly taught understand how the Kingdom is spread and they know that God has His People working in all institutions, including political ones.

 

[studier]

Do you sleep in Albania? I'm done here for the night. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Eli1]

Why do you take this to "some Earthly kingdom"? Are you not for the pursuit of spreading His Kingdom on the earth? I recall history where some of the strong in faith had in mind expanding His Kingdom.

Are you concerned that Trump and MAGA want to expand the Kingdom militarily? Even if some may, do you think this permeates the group?

I'll give you a personal observation I've been gathering over time and had refreshed this day. Until a few years ago I was very distanced from the world over the past 3 decades mostly studying and teaching. I did get involved to a limited degree in some political discussions where I voiced in relation to God and His standards.

More recently I've been watching some of the AI discussions and how men have such grand visions for mankind and the world. Some of this is for human health and physical wellness which seems to me a good thing. Honestly some of this is much more refreshing and fascinating watching men created in God's likeness use their God given capacities to explore and create and reform things that have been corrupted than it is watching Christians sit around and complain and hope for a rapture and argue if there will even be one.

There's a practical part of our Faith where believing men are changed to think and live by God's standards and openly speak about Him as our Savior while also being involved at working to make better lives for their families and neighbors. Honestly, I'm kind of weary of watching the defeated church assuming it's even His Ekklesia.

All arenas are opportunities for evangelizing by word and works. I think the more mature and properly taught understand how the Kingdom is spread and they know that God has His People working in all institutions, including political ones.

Do you sleep in Albania? I'm done here for the night. Thanks for the discussion.

Bro, spreading God’s word is not done on a governmental basis but personal basis, I mentioned this already but it seems that you love to mix politics with God.
So go ahead, mix them.
I won’t follow you in your path.

Also I’m not in Albania, I’m in East Coast USA.

 

[studier]

Bro, spreading God’s word is not done on a governmental basis but personal basis, I mentioned this already but it seems that you love to mix politics with God.
So go ahead, mix them.
I won’t follow you in your path.

Also I’m not in Albania, I’m in East Coast USA.

I couldn't tell from some of your posts where you are.

I think we're simply discussing from different angles. Maybe not.

Government is either based in God's Good Standards or in the opposite - bad standards as defined by God per God's Word. In this there is no way to actually not spread [parts of] God's Word through government. God cannot in actuality be separated from politics.

Spreading [parts of] God's Word - i.e. God's Good News of His Son - is not done through the force of human government. At the same time, human government forcing Christian politicians not to speak of Jesus Christ and not to legislate based upon their faith in God and understanding in good conscience God's standards of good and bad is not done.

 

[Eli1]

I couldn't tell from some of your posts where you are.

I think we're simply discussing from different angles. Maybe not.

Government is either based in God's Good Standards or in the opposite - bad standards as defined by God per God's Word. In this there is no way to actually not spread [parts of] God's Word through government. God cannot in actuality be separated from politics.

Spreading [parts of] God's Word - i.e. God's Good News of His Son - is not done through the force of human government. At the same time, human government forcing Christian politicians not to speak of Jesus Christ and not to legislate based upon their faith in God and understanding in good conscience God's standards of good and bad is not done.

We're definitely discussing from different angles and perspectives and this is part of the cultural differences i keep talking about.
However, this phenomenon of Christians mixing politics with God is not unique to USA. Happens in Greece and Albania too.
There are people there who want to turn Christianity into some sort of military force. These people are in the minority there and nobody takes them seriously but they do exist.
The point is that despite cultural differences you also have different Bible interpretations and cherry picking i mentioned earlier.
If people want war and guns, they will scan the Bible 10 times to support their addiction while ignoring the major teachings of Christ.
This is also what the trans churches do to support their addictions.

But like i said, this isn't a problem because it won't cause a huge disruption in society and turn the Christian society into a muslim version of sharia law. That's why the minority groups in Greece or Albania are never taken seriously either despite being all gun-ho using inflamed rhetoric in their speeches.

 

[studier]

We're definitely discussing from different angles and perspectives and this is part of the cultural differences i keep talking about.
However, this phenomenon of Christians mixing politics with God is not unique to USA. Happens in Greece and Albania too.
There are people there who want to turn Christianity into some sort of military force. These people are in the minority there and nobody takes them seriously but they do exist.
The point is that despite cultural differences you also have different Bible interpretations and cherry picking i mentioned earlier.
If people want war and guns, they will scan the Bible 10 times to support their addiction while ignoring the major teachings of Christ.
This is also what the trans churches do to support their addictions.

But like i said, this isn't a problem because it won't cause a huge disruption in society and turn the Christian society into a muslim version of sharia law. That's why the minority groups in Greece or Albania are never taken seriously either despite being all gun-ho using inflamed rhetoric in their speeches.

IMO this is not cultural, at least not to the point where it couldn't be discussed reasonably. It seems to me to be a difference in interpretation and in reasoning.

I don't think you are able at this point to reasonably suggest I deal with the Scriptures in a cherry-picking fashion. Nor are you able to conclude that all of us put all our wants into Scripture and don't work with God to have our wants conformed to Scripture - to God's ways and will - to be conformed to being Christ-like. Granted we are works in progress.

You seem to be inferring that my view of applying God's Word to politics is a minority view. Firstly, assuming you are, what do you base this on? Secondly, if it were a minority view, does this make it incorrect?

If we take off the table, the desires of some to force belief in Jesus Christ as YHWH's KING over the earth, and to use human government as the force, convince me that I am not to apply God's standards and thus God to politics.

To use one of your repeated examples, do you think it was right or wrong to legislate or issue rulings in support of the trans issue as was being done in the just past administration?

 

[Eli1]

IMO this is not cultural, at least not to the point where it couldn't be discussed reasonably. It seems to me to be a difference in interpretation and in reasoning.

I don't think you are able at this point to reasonably suggest I deal with the Scriptures in a cherry-picking fashion. Nor are you able to conclude that all of us put all our wants into Scripture and don't work with God to have our wants conformed to Scripture - to God's ways and will - to be conformed to being Christ-like. Granted we are works in progress.

You seem to be inferring that my view of applying God's Word to politics is a minority view. Firstly, assuming you are, what do you base this on? Secondly, if it were a minority view, does this make it incorrect?

If we take off the table, the desires of some to force belief in Jesus Christ as YHWH's KING over the earth, and to use human government as the force, convince me that I am not to apply God's standards and thus God to politics.

To use one of your repeated examples, do you think it was right or wrong to legislate or issue rulings in support of the trans issue as was being done in the just past administration?

Yes, i agree that mixing politics with God is not a cultural specific idea for a country. It happens in many countries. This is why the Pope is a politician or the head priest of the Orthodox Church in Moscow who blessed Putin's war and his tanks despite the letters sent from the rest of the churches to him which he ignored.
This is the confusion part.

To answer your question: It was wrong by the Dems to legislate the trans issues since the Obama administration. Until then the policy was "don't ask don't tell" which was a reasonable policy.
However in the course of 15 years we have a minority (LGBT) getting in our faces about their lifestyle and they also want to impose language restrictions on us.
What happens next in history is what happened now. The majority is going to reject this stupidity (including atheist societies) and they will restore some balance.
This is why their views (LGBT) and Christian military views are in the minority. They're both extreme ends of the spectrum.
Also, i'm not sure why you are trying to sell me this Politics+God package, because it's not something new. If it was reasonable based on the Bible i would adopt it but since it isn't, then i won't follow you or others who mix politics with God.

 

[studier]

Yes, i agree that mixing politics with God is not a cultural specific idea for a country. It happens in many countries. This is why the Pope is a politician or the head priest of the Orthodox Church in Moscow who blessed Putin's war and his tanks despite the letters sent from the rest of the churches to him which he ignored.
This is the confusion part.

To answer your question: It was wrong by the Dems to legislate the trans issues since the Obama administration. Until then the policy was "don't ask don't tell" which was a reasonable policy.
However in the course of 15 years we have a minority (LGBT) getting in our faces about their lifestyle and they also want to impose language restrictions on us.
What happens next in history is what happened now. The majority is going to reject this stupidity (including atheist societies) and they will restore some balance.
This is why their views (LGBT) and Christian military views are in the minority. They're both extreme ends of the spectrum.
Also, i'm not sure why you are trying to sell me this Politics+God package, because it's not something new. If it was reasonable based on the Bible i would adopt it but since it isn't, then i won't follow you or others who mix politics with God.

Firstly, I don't think either of us is trying sell the other anything.

Why was it "wrong" to legislate? Why was the existing policy "reasonable"?

Why was it [wrong] for that minority to impose upon those who disagree with them? Why is it right to disagree with that minority?

Why is the minority stupid [and the majority smart]?

Why are the minority views you mention "extreme"?

 

[Eli1]

Firstly, I don't think either of us is trying sell the other anything.

Why was it "wrong" to legislate? Why was the existing policy "reasonable"?

Why was it [wrong] for that minority to impose upon those who disagree with them? Why is it right to disagree with that minority?

Why is the minority stupid [and the majority smart]?

Why are the minority views you mention "extreme"?

Because it's common sense man. This is what Trump is restoring. Common sense! Have you seen his news conferences?
In Christian language it would be: keep your sin private. Don't bring your sin in my face.
That's why it's wrong for any minority in any society (including atheist societies) to try to get in everyone's faces about their views.

 

[studier]

Because it's common sense man. This is what Trump is restoring. Common sense! Have you seen his news conferences?

So as long as it's common sense [to a majority] it's Right?

In Christian language it would be: keep your sin private. Don't bring your sin in my face.

Would you provide some Scripture for this "Christian language"?

That's why it's wrong for any minority in any society (including atheist societies) to try to get in everyone's faces about their views.

So "wrong" is determined by man's common sense and "Christian language" you might support with Scripture?

 

[Eli1]

So as long as it's common sense [to a majority] it's Right?



Would you provide some Scripture for this "Christian language"?



So "wrong" is determined by man's common sense and "Christian language" you might support with Scripture?

I think we're losing each-other in communication.

Yes, as long as it's common sense to the majority then it's considered right. This is how societies have operated since known history.
When you tilt the balance, then societies will self-correct through turmoil, sometimes civil war.

I wasn't talking Scripture at this point but it was me just saying that, not quoting Scripture.

The morality of societies which include atheist societies are different from the morality we know of in the Bible and since NO MAN can uphold the morality in the Bible since they will become corrupt from power, the best way to change the world is on an individual basis like the Saints did and like Christ told us to do.

Ephesians 5:15
Ephesians 6:18
Matthew 6:33
1 Corinthians 15:58

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 5:15
Ephesians 6:18
Matthew 6:33
1 Corinthians 15:58

Ephesians 5:15-16 Pay careful attention, then, to how you walk, not
as unwise but as wise, 16redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Ephesians 6:18-19 Pray in the Spirit at all times, with every kind of prayer and petition.
To this end, stay alert with all perseverance in your prayers for all the saints. Pray also
for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will boldly
make known the mystery of the gospel

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast and immovable. Always
excel in the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Matthew 6:31 plus 33

 

[Jimbone]

Well, it's part of the MAGA/Christian nationalist party platform. Are you saying it's unchristian, or that we just shouldn't be concerned with it?

NO!! I will not hear this. This isn't "MAGA's fault". ALL your rage should be pointed at those who did this, the Biden administration and the Democrats. It's ALL their faults. Every time you see a family separated, or people being shipped out, you need to put the blame where it belongs, at the Democrat's feet. They don't get to make the problem then demonize the people who have to clean up the mess. What you are saying here is delusional and to try to blame Trump or Maga for ANY of this is a joke.

 

[studier]

I think we're losing each-other in communication.

Yes, as long as it's common sense to the majority then it's considered right. This is how societies have operated since known history.
When you tilt the balance, then societies will self-correct through turmoil, sometimes civil war.

I wasn't talking Scripture at this point but it was me just saying that, not quoting Scripture.

The morality of societies which include atheist societies are different from the morality we know of in the Bible and since NO MAN can uphold the morality in the Bible since they will become corrupt from power, the best way to change the world is on an individual basis like the Saints did and like Christ told us to do.

Ephesians 5:15
Ephesians 6:18
Matthew 6:33
1 Corinthians 15:58

There simply is no Good or Right other than what God says is Good and Right. The majority or minority of what men view as common sense is of no bearing or effect on Good and Right.

The morality of all societies is not different from Biblical morality. There is no morality apart from what God says is moral (a word I'm using to accommodate you. Biblically the word is "Righteous"). In most to every point of morality in any society we will either find agreement or disagreement with what God has established as Good and Right.

Not all men who seek to live by God established conscience or points of Biblical morality become corrupt from power. I'd venture to say that relatively speaking very few do.

You're asserting what you consider right and wrong. There is no basis for this apart from what God says is Right and Wrong. In reality God cannot be separated from any discussion of Right and Wrong. God cannot be separated from politics.

Christ's commission to His Apostles was to teach all the nations His commands (Matt28). Paul's stated mission was to bring the nations to faith-obedience (Rom1, 16). This is faith-obedience to Jesus Christ and His commands. He is the source of what is and is not moral. Man's common sense is not.

 

[Eli1]

I guess i'll continue this conversation for fun now.

There simply is no Good or Right other than what God says is Good and Right. The majority or minority of what men view as common sense is of no bearing or effect on Good and Right.

Yes and the moment you get into a government position or a position of power, the power will corrupt you. Your founding fathers did a great job separating church from state.

The morality of all societies is not different from Biblical morality. There is no morality apart from what God says is moral (a word I'm using to accommodate you. Biblically the word is "Righteous"). In most to every point of morality in any society we will either find agreement or disagreement with what God has established as Good and Right.

You are wrong. The morality of societies during the cold war who were state sanctioned atheist societies was based on what the dictators said. Nobody even mentioned the Bible or God.

Not all men who seek to live by God established conscience or points of Biblical morality become corrupt from power. I'd venture to say that relatively speaking very few do.

You are wrong. ANY man getting into power, will become corrupt, this includes Christians. Also since Christ told us to not follow the government or get involved into government but focus on Him, then you're wrong twice.

You're asserting what you consider right and wrong. There is no basis for this apart from what God says is Right and Wrong. In reality God cannot be separated from any discussion of Right and Wrong. God cannot be separated from politics.

I already explained how this works in atheist societies. Let me know if you want me to repeat or explain further if you don't understand it.

Christ's commission to His Apostles was to teach all the nations His commands (Matt28). Paul's stated mission was to bring the nations to faith-obedience (Rom1, 16). This is faith-obedience to Jesus Christ and His commands. He is the source of what is and is not moral. Man's common sense is not.

You seem very desperate to link God or the Holy Trinity to politics on Earth.
I speak my own words and minimize verses because i try to emphasise the main point of the teachings of Christ.
Did He tell us to get involved with world governments? No. This is why He said "give Cesar what belongs to Cesar".
Did He establish some sort of government here? No. The Jews would have been very happy about this and this is why they hated Him. They were expecting a military leader to defeat Rome.
He did defeat Rome but not through weapons, but through Faith.
Did He tell us that His Kingdom is not of this world and to focus on Him? Yes.

 

[studier]

I guess i'll continue this conversation for fun now.

Where do you get your standards of what is Righteous vs. Unrighteous?

Simple question.

 

[Eli1]

Where do you get your standards of what is Righteous vs. Unrighteous?

Simple question.

From the Bible.

 

[maxwel]

This Thread:

This thread has been excruciatingly circuitous, frequently preferring the sheer drama of debate over biblical resolution.

The O.P. asked the simple question of how do we apply scripture to politics.
A.) BIBLICALLY -
It would biblically seem: there are simple principles governing this arena, and even guidelines for prioritizing some principles above others.
B.) LOGICALLY -
It would logically seem: there are rational ways to extrapolate these principles out to specific issues, though this will necessarily become more and more complex.
C.) EXPERIENTIALLY -
It would experientially seem: people come to this issue with a lot of baggage and cultural presupposition, and it's the presupposition that causes so much mud in the water.
D.) OVERALL -
It would seem it is both biblical and rational to resolve these problems by focusing on the core biblical principles, using those to create a broader logical and theological framework, and then using that framework to place and assess all of these political issues.

It seems to me that many decent and well-meaning people approach complex issues a bit... backward.



Just my quick thoughts.

.

 

[Aaron56]

The moment you institutionalize righteousness you disconnect from the source of righteousness, Christ. What you are left with is a powerless form of God's kingdom.

What your left with are people fattened by Biblical information without ever living the truth of the Word.