To The Unbelievers

[Blain]

To be willing to die knowing you will be resurrected plenty of people have died for what they believe in for a whole lot less if we aren't willing when occult leaders and groups are or say the combatents in war then is our faith really faith?

Ubelievers are willing to die for a cause after all and they don't get the same resurrection if we have the promise of resurrection what is death to us except sleep?

 

[Blain]

And @keepingthingsreal do not be discouraged we all have fallen short at times when we needed to be strong your prayer life as I can sense it is deep and your on the right path keep going the way you are now because there is blessings up ahead for you I feel it in my bones

 

[Cameron143]

Ok so one needs to “be indwelt “ by the Holy Spirit and then they can accept God ?

As I understand scripture, yes.

 

[studier]

Yes.

Agree. Very important IMO.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

As I understand scripture, yes.

so then how does one receive or I guess be “ indwelt “ by the spirit ? Is what the gospel said about the holt ghost coming to dwell inside us true ?

“If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

…He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-17, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your position is first one needs to be “ indwelt” by Gods spirit and then afterwards a person can hear what he’s saying and believe ?

 

[keepingthingsreal]

I am hoping that this thread does not get derailed by turning into another free-for-all (even though it is not "free for all" in some people's eyes) on the topic of "election."

Can we show the OP some respect by staying on topic?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I am hoping that this thread does not get derailed by turning into another free-for-all (even though it is not "free for all" in some people's eyes) on the topic of "election."

Can we show the OP some respect by staying on topic?

Yeah we better let all the unbelievers here in the bible forum discussion this one

 

[studier]

And this is the crux of the matter: can fallen natural man of his own volition and in his own strength do such?

Not really.

Man can only resist the Spirit of God. And, only man's spirit, given to him by God, can respond to God. This is why no one can brag about being born again: it was what God gave him that can respond to God.

Please explain "Not really."

To clarify what I see in the flow here:

Your points:

1. God gave man a/his spirit.
2. Man's spirit can respond to God.
3. Man's spirit can refuse to follow the Spirit

Question you were asked:

1. Can fallen natural man of his own volition and in his own strength do such (respond to the call of the Holy Spirit / refuse to resist the Spirit)

Based upon "Your points" above as I understand you, my questions asking you to clarify:

1. Does fallen natural man retain his spirit from God?
2. Does fallen natural man retain the strength to respond to or refuse the Spirit?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Please explain "Not really."

To clarify what I see in the flow here:

Your points:

1. God gave man a/his spirit.
2. Man's spirit can respond to God.
3. Man's spirit can refuse to follow the Spirit

Question you were asked:

1. Can fallen natural man of his own volition and in his own strength do such (respond to the call of the Holy Spirit / refuse to resist the Spirit)

Based upon "Your points" above as I understand you, my questions asking you to clarify:

1. Does fallen natural man retain his spirit from God?
2. Does fallen natural man retain the strength to respond to or refuse the Spirit?

We’re missing our companion and need him with us

“If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; ( not replace you but with you ) even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. ( not I’ll replace you I’ll be with you )

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”( be with him not replace him )
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-18, 21, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

people think we didn’t have a spirit but then God gave us one or God killed our soirit and he’s replacing it with a other person or something . But really it’s about Gods spirit coming to dwell with and in us together with us to redeem our dying spirit man is meant to be a constant companion of the lord by his spirits presence with us

mans spirit came from God in the beginning and the redemption of mans spirit comes from God in the end

we seem to think of re birth in a natural sense

 

[Cameron143]

so then how does one receive or I guess be “ indwelt “ by the spirit ? Is what the gospel said about the holt ghost coming to dwell inside us true ?

“If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

…He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-17, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your position is first one needs to be “ indwelt” by Gods spirit and then afterwards a person can hear what he’s saying and believe ?

That is my position. Jesus tells us how the Spirit operates...like the wind. He moves after His own will.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That is my position. Jesus tells us how the Spirit operates...like the wind. He moves after His own will.

Yes he also tells us we have to repent believe the gospel and follow him to receive it . no one ever says “. You need to first receive Gods spirit and then later you’ll be able to hear and believe the gospel “ that’s backwards bro belief of the gospel is what brings everything you are speaking of the gospel is gods goft that offers the Holy Ghost to people who need him or they can’t be saved from tbier current condition having his spirit absent from thier body

If people already had the spirit they wouldn’t need the gospel but everyone does so he sent it to all creatures for salvation

“Then Peter said unto them, 1 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and 2 ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everything is done all that’s left is the witness to believe or reject

 

[studier]

We’re missing our companion and need him with us

“If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-18, 21, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

people think we didn’t have a spirit but then God gave us one or God killed our soirit and he’s replacing it with a other person or something . But really it’s about Gods spirit coming to dwell with and in us together with us to redeem our dying spirit man is meant to be a constant companion of the lord by his spirits presence with us

mans spirit came from God in the beginning and the redemption of mans spirit comes from God in the end

Thanks. I don't see the answer to my question here.

I agree with the request to not allow this thread to degenerate into the usual melee, so I'm not asking to go there. What I am asking you in relation to the @Cameron143 post is about fallen man's spirit and his retained capacities (in his spirit) to respond to and refuse the Spirit.

So, does fallen man retain his spirit?

Does "fallen natural man" have or not have a spirit?

Assuming fallen natural man retains his spirit from God, as you seem to have said in your points, can he (is he able to) in his spirit:

1. Choose to respond positively to the Spirit / The Word / God?
2. Choose to refuse the Spirit / The Word / God?
3. If yes, then is this ability a retained strength?
   1. Or does God have to do something to fallen natural man to enable him/give him strength to respond positively to the Spirit?
      1. If yes, then what does God have to do to enable him?

 

[Cameron143]

Yes he also tells us we have to repent believe the gospel and follow him to receive it . no one ever says “. You need to first receive Gods spirit and then later you’ll be able to hear and believe the gospel “ that’s backwards bro belief of the gospel is what brings everything you are speaking of the gospel is gods goft that offers the Holy Ghost to people who need him or they can’t be saved from tbier current condition having his spirit absent from thier body

If people already had the spirit they wouldn’t need the gospel but everyone does so he sent it to all creatures for salvation

“Then Peter said unto them, 1 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and 2 ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everything is done all that’s left is the witness to believe or reject

We disagree on what is true of the natural fallen man. I also disagree with the application of some of the scriptures you have shared. But as at least one has cautioned, I have simply answered as to what my beliefs are and not why so as not to derail the thread.

 

[Aaron56]

Sorry people, I was tied up in a couple short meetings.

Every man has a spirit. The spirit is what makes people "beings". God allows this spirit of man to be subject to the man (just as spiritual gifts are subject to the receivers).

This spirit is the "breath of God" the ruach.

Because of sin, the spirit of men was disconnected from God. Because of this, man dies spiritually. It is different from physical death. In spiritual death, man retains the spirit God gave him but man is led by the desires of his physical nature. In physical death, the spirit given to man returns to God who gave it to him.

Man may resist God by exerting his own energy in pursuit of his own desires. Doing this prevents the Holy Spirit from affecting man.

If man stops resisting God, the Holy Spirit can inform the spirit of man. By this, the spirit of man is brought back into, while the man lives, the fold of the One Spirit. God, then, raises the man into new life that is governed by a different economy: eternal.

That's the outline.

 

[Aaron56]

Thanks. I don't see the answer to my question here.

I agree with the request to not allow this thread to degenerate into the usual melee, so I'm not asking to go there. What I am asking you in relation to the @Cameron143 post is about fallen man's spirit and his retained capacities (in his spirit) to respond to and refuse the Spirit.

So, does fallen man retain his spirit?

Does "fallen natural man" have or not have a spirit?

Assuming fallen natural man retains his spirit from God, as you seem to have said in your points, can he (is he able to) in his spirit:

1. Choose to respond positively to the Spirit / The Word / God?
2. Choose to refuse the Spirit / The Word / God?
3. If yes, then is this ability a retained strength?
   1. Or does God have to do something to fallen natural man to enable him/give him strength to respond positively to the Spirit?
      1. If yes, then what does God have to do to enable him?

Man can refuse to exert his energy against God and allow the Holy Spirit to inform the man. This is "refusing to resist God". Responding to God for salvation is only permitted after man refuses to resist God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We disagree on what is true of the natural fallen man. I also disagree with the application of some of the scriptures you have shared. But as at least one has cautioned, I have simply answered as to what my beliefs are and not why so as not to derail the thread.

Ok brother

 

[studier]

Man can refuse to exert his energy against God and allow the Holy Spirit to inform the man. This is "refusing to resist God". Responding to God for salvation is only permitted after man refuses to resist God.

So fallen natural man is able to - has the strength to - refuse to resist God, correct?

 

[Aaron56]

So fallen natural man is able to - has the strength to - refuse to resist God, correct?

I would not use "strength" to describe man's ability to stop resisting God. Man's default setting, from creation, is to be led by the Holy Spirit in all things. This is what most people miss when arguing about man's free will and why no one can agree. Man is designed to follow God. Resisting God requires effort, not receiving God.

Stephen would say it this way: “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

Resisting a spirit's influence on someone's life prevents that spirit's work in said life. This is a spiritual principle that extends to the enemy, too: "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you."

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Man can refuse to exert his energy against God and allow the Holy Spirit to inform the man. This is "refusing to resist God". Responding to God for salvation is only permitted after man refuses to resist God.

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Thanks. I don't see the answer to my question here.

I agree with the request to not allow this thread to degenerate into the usual melee, so I'm not asking to go there. What I am asking you in relation to the @Cameron143 post is about fallen man's spirit and his retained capacities (in his spirit) to respond to and refuse the Spirit.

So, does fallen man retain his spirit?

Does "fallen natural man" have or not have a spirit?

Assuming fallen natural man retains his spirit from God, as you seem to have said in your points, can he (is he able to) in his spirit:

1. Choose to respond positively to the Spirit / The Word / God?
2. Choose to refuse the Spirit / The Word / God?
3. If yes, then is this ability a retained strength?
   1. Or does God have to do something to fallen natural man to enable him/give him strength to respond positively to the Spirit?
      1. If yes, then what does God have to do to enable him?

yeah if a spirit isn’t in a body it dies . Our spirit is how God inows every deed and work and thought

“The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, Searching all the inward parts of the belly.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭20:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭

note throughout the Bible there are references to man’s spirit even those who died in Noah’s time tbier soirits lived still

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Even after a man dies his spirit still continues on the Bible talks of man’s spirit being saved in many places of course we still have our spirit it’s what God is trying to save our body is already doomed and tied to death our spirit can be saved still and redeemed to Gods image

 

[studier]

As one who has already been down this road, I was left with the only plausible outcome. Jesus Christ the foundation of Christianity truly did rise from the dead and secured His place as the Messiah to the Jews and Savior to the Gentiles. Jesus boldly claimed to be the only way to salvation (John 16:6, Acts 4:12) making all other belief systems or worldviews false.

The resurrection proves all other religions and beliefs to be false. It provides only a black or white image, there is no grey. He didn't give us that option. So if Heaven and Hell exist, then the only logical response is to truly wrestle with this topic because not only is your soul impacted but so are those around you.

As I understand you, I agree with you, and I like how you're integrating some important facts in your quoted words:

Jesus being the Christ is the only foundation that can be built upon. This is important to the complete Gospel that Paul taught. The first few verses of 1Cor15 are not the complete Gospel at minimum apart from clarifying what "Christ" means and making certain to proclaim Jesus is the Christ which Paul made clear in Acts13 by reference to Ps2 that Christ/Anointed is parallel and equated to - thus means - that Jesus is YHWH's KING above all kings and people, and the earth is His.

You've obviously got the balance of Paul's argument in 1Cor15 figured out. If Jesus was not resurrected, then Jesus is not YHWH's CHRIST/KING, not the Savior, and our faith is empty and worthless, and we have nothing for the unbeliever.

Looks like nice work. Interesting OP. Thanks!