Why do some people believe and some do not?

[cv5]

I refuse to admit that Jesus lied when he said, "Seek/ask/knock and you will find, etc.?" (MT 7:7)
(Apparently, you acknowledge he did :^(

Yup. That is what is being inextricably implied here.

 

[GWH]

exactly how different is clinging to God and loving Him while we are dead and we hate Him, from sprouting wings and flying, or turning ourselves into new creations?
((Romans 1:30/2:1, Ephesians 2:1, etc))

Quite different, because God does not enable us to do the first two things, but He does give us volition/faith sufficient for seeking Him/Truth/Christ/salvation.

 

[posthuman]

Frankly, not interested. A little leaven......

are you uninfluenced by anything? but because someone told you Augustine was influenced, you refuse to hear him?

we should not judge someone without hearing them - and seeing that this brother of ours was highly regarded in his time by the church, it doesn't seem right to me to take someone else's word about him without hearing his own words.

if you take the time to read the link, you will discover that he quotes the Bible profusely, and Greek philosophy not at all - and that he says many of the same things you are saying.

 

[posthuman]

You should hear what @Rufus has to say about the Exodus and wilderness wanderings.

why should i read Rufus before judging him, if you won't read Augustine before judging him?

 

[Magenta]

What people mean by it is the ability to choose between life and death as God tells us to do. You can
choose to do evil or good, obviously you cannot choose to fly or choose to live without drinking water.

No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3b

Where is free will in that? I don't see it...

The natural man does not say, "Jesus is Lord."

It quite simply is not in his nature.

His nature is hostile to God.

His will is taken captive to the will of the devil.

He is blinded by the god of this world and unable to receive the Spiritual things of God.

He is a lover of darkness and suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

That is the nature of the natural man, with his stony heart.

The gospel message is foolishness to him.

 

[cv5]

why should i read Rufus before judging him, if you won't read Augustine before judging him?

Whether you do or whether you don't is your CHOICE.
And I CHOOSE not to spend time reading Augustin.
No "E" BTW.

 

[cv5]

are you uninfluenced by anything? but because someone told you Augustine was influenced, you refuse to hear him?

we should not judge someone without hearing them - and seeing that this brother of ours was highly regarded in his time by the church, it doesn't seem right to me to take someone else's word about him without hearing his own words.

if you take the time to read the link, you will discover that he quotes the Bible profusely, and Greek philosophy not at all - and that he says many of the same things you are saying.

Nope. Don't have time.
The fact that he was deeply into Greek philosophy is too big of a red flag for me to ignore in any case.

You know, I read some of what B. B. Warfield produced.
Man it was just hopeless. All sound and fury signifying nothing.

Oooooppppss sorry for that bit of vain philosophy.

 

[Cameron143]

I refuse to admit that Jesus lied when he said, "Seek/ask/knock and you will find, etc.?" (MT 7:7)
(Apparently, you acknowledge he did :^(

This is why it does little good to discuss things with people like you. You insinuate people are liars if they reconcile verses differently than you. Yet you have no problem with your own lack of love while espousing the love of God.

 

[Magenta]

Yet you have no problem with your own lack of love while espousing the love of God.

Scripture says such people are liars.

 

[Cameron143]

What people mean by it is the ability to choose between life and death as God tells us to do. You can choose to do evil or good, obviously you cannot choose to fly or choose to live without drinking water.

I never said people can't make choices. But the ability to choose isn't freewill. Freewill is the ability to make every choice. It doesn't exist. Man himself is limited in his choices.
I believe, as a result of sin, man's ability to choose has been altered because his nature was altered. That he still has the ability to choose wasn't altered, just as his mind didn't stop functioning or his heart didn't start feeling. But they were corrupted by sin and no longer function as they were created. That's why God in salvation heals the corruption in man as He remakes them in the image of His Son.

There's plenty of scriptural evidence for what I have shared and I'm glad to share it with you if you are so inclined.

 

[Magenta]

There's plenty of scriptural evidence for what I have shared and I'm glad to share it with you if you are so inclined.

It gets shared and routinely ignored quite a bit... I find myself repeating a litany of characteristics of the
natural man and I doubt anyone has said anything really about them aside from falsely claiming they
are taken out of context. They have a bad tree producing good fruit against the very words of Jesus.
And to do this they vastly minimize and often completely sweep aside what is said of the natural
man and/or ascribe to him that which can only be said to be true of the spiritual man.

Ah, yes, some have actually admitting that they ignore what Scripture says of the natural man.

And then others mock the idea of God fulfilling His promises through personal revelation.

I have even seen it said it makes God unfair that He does so.

But these people believe they are correct in their views...

 

[lrs68]

The same spirit of Pride that existed in Satan when he attempted to be equal with God is the same spirit within natural man. Satan made his own choice as Romans 1 explains those who deny God have done.

 

[cv5]

I never said people can't make choices. But the ability to choose isn't freewill. Freewill is the ability to make every choice. It doesn't exist. Man himself is limited in his choices.
I believe, as a result of sin, man's ability to choose has been altered because his nature was altered. That he still has the ability to choose wasn't altered, just as his mind didn't stop functioning or his heart didn't start feeling. But they were corrupted by sin and no longer function as they were created. That's why God in salvation heals the corruption in man as He remakes them in the image of His Son.

There's plenty of scriptural evidence for what I have shared and I'm glad to share it with you if you are so inclined.

Is that supposed to make ANY sense to ANYBODY but a Calvinite (and yes, you just moved your goalposts.....again).

I don't think so man. And it's USELESS Greek blubbering just as Paul says. For all the same reasons.

I also think that it is more philosophical fig leaves meant to lend cover to Calvinite guilt that has been exposed.

 

[Hakawaka]

No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3b

Where is free will in that? I don't see it...

The natural man does not say, "Jesus is Lord."

It quite simply is not in his nature.

His nature is hostile to God.

His will is taken captive to the will of the devil.

He is blinded by the god of this world and unable to receive the Spiritual things of God.

He is a lover of darkness and suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

That is the nature of the natural man, with his stony heart.

The gospel message is foolishness to him.

Thats an interesting verse, I have seen atheists say that just to mock the verse, so I don't know how I feel about it. Ive always wondered about it, but back then saying Jesus is Lord meant trouble, nowadays nothing will happen to you if you say it, (in the western world that is)

Its true that wicked men love darkness and have a stony heart, but lets also remember that God's grace has appeared unto all men as per Titus 2:11. Jesus died for all men and the gospel goes out to all men. And the gospel is the power of God, and when presented with God's grace we can reject it or accept it.

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

We implore you on Christ's behalf, BE RECONCILED! This is a meaningless statement if there is no mind of man involved. Remember that repentance is just that, to turn, to change ones mind.

 

[Cameron143]

Is that supposed to make ANY sense to ANYBODY but a Calvinite (and yes, you just moved your goalposts.....again).

I don't think so man. And it's USELESS Greek blubbering just as Paul says. For all the same reasons.

I also think that it is more philosophical fig leaves meant to lend cover to Calvinite guilt that has been exposed.

Since you are admitting to not having good reading comprehension skills, perhaps you can tell me what it is you cannot understand and I'll use smaller words next time.

 

[sawdust]

yes showing that "free will" is not completely "free" - - nature constrains it.

Freedom without restraint is not freedom, it is chaos so the argument that free will is not free is absurd. It is perfectly free (under God's grace) within the context of it's creation.

 

[Magenta]

Thats an interesting verse, I have seen atheists say that just to mock the verse, so I don't know how I feel about it. Ive always wondered about it, but back then saying Jesus is Lord meant trouble, nowadays nothing will happen to you if you say it, (in the western world that is)

Its true that wicked men love darkness and have a stony heart, but lets also remember that God's grace has appeared unto all men as per Titus 2:11. Jesus died for all men and the gospel goes out to all men. And the gospel is the power of God, and when presented with God's grace we can reject it or accept it.

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

We implore you on Christ's behalf, BE RECONCILED! This is a meaningless statement if there is no mind of man involved. Remember that repentance is just that, to turn, to change ones mind.

Yes, anyone can mouth words that are devoid of the honest conviction of one's heart. That is why when reconciling
Scripture with Scripture it must be taken into account that one not just confesses with their mouth but also believes
in their heart that Jesus is LORD, which the natural man is opposed to with his inherently hostile mind and heart of stone...

The truth has gone out into the world, this is true. It is also true that the fool says in his heart, there is no God.

 

[sawdust]

so why does it "not depend on man's desire or effort" ((Rom. 9:16))?

you've got the effort part explained, but what about the desire ((will)) part?

Because Rom 9:16 is not talking about what a man believes but about what God plans to do with His people.

 

[sawdust]

I believe, as a result of sin, man's ability to choose has been altered because his nature was altered.

Man's will and nature were trapped, not altered, he is still human whether a sinner or not.

 

[posthuman]

My point is that is not how "free will" has been defined/ understood by anybody, it is never meant one can defy the laws of gravity.

The underlying problem or premise is the Augustinian view of human nature.
He is making an analogy to laws of nature which is not a serious argument.

They always want to confuse/obfuscate the result ( not our work, salvation, the Gift) to receiving the Gift.
Just a lack of necessary nuance which of course is how the tenets of Calvinism work.

what i have done is make it plain that "free" needs to be carefully defined before anyone starts making claims about free will.