Why do some people believe and some do not?

[studier]

God's wrath is tethered to justice and vengeance, distinct from the chastisement of His children

Thanks. I was asking what for clarification of what @HeIsHere was asking me.

 

[ParticularWife]

John 3:3-6
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again
How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born! Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit"

Ezekiel 36:26-27
"I [God] will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws"

To much to explain brother but here is a good video to watch on it....Hope it helps.

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What does Martin Luther have to do with anything? lol

Read The Bondage of the Will. Martin Luther believes exactly what Calvin does on this particular point. In fact, Martin Luther writes a lot more about predestination and human inability than Calvin did.

 

[GWH]

God is love and wrath. He displays them both to his glory. God's hatred is never venial or unjust, but fully as perfect as his love.

God loves and wants to save everyone (1TM 2:3-4, ACTS 17:26-28); Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ).

God is just (2THS 1:6a, cf. RM 3:25-26 & 9:14, DT 32:4, PS 36:6, LK 11:42, RV 15:3). All explanations of reality and interpretations of Scripture should conform to this certitude: “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” (PS 145:17) The Judge is just. It would be better not to attempt an explanation of God’s Word than to state one that impugns God’s justice and love for all people (JL 2:13, JN 3:16).

Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love. Hebrews 12:4-11 offers the clue for harmonizing these two themes. This passage indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline: to teach people to repent of their hatefulness or faithlessness (PR 3:12, IS 33:14-15 RV 3:19) before they die, after which divine wrath will be experienced justly without the opportunity for repentance in hell.

 

[studier]

I'm not interested in relegislating this, I disagree and you can easily discover why by reading Martin Luther. I can also quote the Bible, but I'm not remotely about to engage in some rote recapitulation of something you either do or should know the answer to. To put it briefly, I reject your interpretation of key passages and do not believe humans are capable of turning to God without the direct work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate them first. If you want to have this square dance you'll need another partner, I'm not a debate bro.

I see you're fairly new here. I'm not here much and maybe just visiting for now. I also saw this on another thread before you came to this thread: "I’ve been immersed in high Calvinist circles for years—probably some of the most Calvinist spaces you’ll find"

Is this the thread to be strongly asserting strict Calvinist traditions. I suppose any thread could be and your initial post on this one seemed a legitimate response to the question raised in the OP. But how far do we have to go into all the arguments over TULIP here? There's a lot of aggression on the other thread about Election. This one will quickly devolve into the same if someone pushes it.

 

[Cameron143]

This is absurd. Faith leads to regeneration. I believed in God when I was cursing Christians. Jesus opened my eyes to see what I was following was him, so I chose to believe in the gospel

So Jesus opened your eyes then you believed? Was that a spiritual awakening?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Read The Bondage of the Will. Martin Luther believes exactly what Calvin does on this particular point. In fact, Martin Luther writes a lot more about predestination and human inability than Calvin did.

Because both he and Luther developed their theologies from the writings of the former gnostic Augustine, who brought gnostic ideas into the church like total inability.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So Jesus opened your eyes then you believed? Was that a spiritual awakening?

His spirit witnessed through scripture that he was the voice I had been following. I was persuaded and believed

 

[ParticularWife]

God loves and wants to save everyone (1TM 2:3-4, ACTS 17:26-28); Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ).

God is just (2THS 1:6a, cf. RM 3:25-26 & 9:14, DT 32:4, PS 36:6, LK 11:42, RV 15:3). All explanations of reality and interpretations of Scripture should conform to this certitude: “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” (PS 145:17) The Judge is just. It would be better not to attempt an explanation of God’s Word than to state one that impugns God’s justice and love for all people (JL 2:13, JN 3:16).

Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love. Hebrews 12:4-11 offers the clue for harmonizing these two themes. This passage indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline: to teach people to repent of their hatefulness or faithlessness (PR 3:12, IS 33:14-15 RV 3:19) before they die, after which divine wrath will be experienced justly without the opportunity for repentance in hell.

In not arguing basic points is Reformed theology, use the internet or let the Presbyterian handle it. I reject your interpretation and am not going to type up something you can Google on Monergism in two minutes.

 

[ParticularWife]

Because both he and Luther developed their theologies from the writings of the former gnostic Augustine, who brought gnostic ideas into the church like total inability.

Or Augustine was right and the gnostics are close, but decisively wrong, because they're a Christian heresy. Anyway, you need to talk to an actual Reformed pastor because I'm not going to repeat myself 500 times. Use Google.

 

[posthuman]

Re "His word says multiple times that He hardened the heart of Pharoah and of his army. this isn't a translation issue; it's not a debateable point. it's fact. for you to say He didn't? when He clearly says He did? then tell me i am the one who is imagining things? that's ludicrous.": I reprove you for failing to acknowledge the fact that the GW teaches God loves and wants to save everyone. Instead, you imply He doesn't, even though you cannot bring yourself to admit it.

pretty sure I've quoted 1 Timothy 2:3-4 more than once in this thread.

but the reality of that is not going to make me attempt to re-write clear scripture. it instead forces me to accept that scripture says what it says.

if you don't like what you think the implications of John 10 and Exodus 4 are, your problem isn't with me.

 

[Magenta]

pretty sure I've quoted 1 Timothy 2:3-4 more than once in this thread.

but the reality of that is not going to make me attempt to re-write clear scripture. it instead forces me to accept that scripture says what it says.

1 Timothy 2:1-4

 

[Cameron143]

His spirit witnessed through scripture that he was the voice I had been following. I was persuaded and believed

You heard His voice and you followed Him? Hmm.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Or Augustine was right and the gnostics are close, but decisively wrong, because they're a Christian heresy. Anyway, you need to talk to an actual Reformed pastor because I'm not going to repeat myself 500 times. Use Google.

You would do well to Google Calvin/Luther + gnosticism

 

[sawdust]

Proverbs 25:4​

Take away the dross from silver, ​

and it will go to the silversmith for jewelry.​

And your point is what? God creates us innately evil and then swoops down with mercy by removing what He created so we can believe?

 

[ParticularWife]

I see you're fairly new here. I'm not here much and maybe just visiting for now. I also saw this on another thread before you came to this thread: "I’ve been immersed in high Calvinist circles for years—probably some of the most Calvinist spaces you’ll find"

Is this the thread to be strongly asserting strict Calvinist traditions. I suppose any thread could be and your initial post on this one seemed a legitimate response to the question raised in the OP. But how far do we have to go into all the arguments over TULIP here? There's a lot of aggression on the other thread about Election. This one will quickly devolve into the same if someone pushes it.

I honestly think most internet debating is totally pointless. I'm interested in things I haven't heard before, not doing some mechanical deniminational combat, which is all this stuff ever is.
I've heard lots of people from outside the Reformed tradition make interesting points or distinctions, some of which I think fit into Reformed theology and some not. But when it comes to 'sectarian internet Bible quotation wars' I have better ways to waste my time.
I'm very up front about my theological particulars because I want to be transparent and honest, but I'm not interested in these dead end arguments over the same things. And you're not going to find me trying to convince random Pentacostals of Cessationism. 99% of the time it's just people repeating the same arguments at each other.

 

[studier]

I honestly think most internet debating is totally pointless. I'm interested in things I haven't heard before, not doing some mechanical deniminational combat, which is all this stuff ever is.
I've heard lots of people from outside the Reformed tradition make interesting points or distinctions, some of which I think fit into Reformed theology and some not. But when it comes to 'sectarian internet Bible quotation wars' I have better ways to waste my time.
I'm very up front about my theological particulars because I want to be transparent and honest, but I'm not interested in these dead end arguments over the same things. And you're not going to find me trying to convince random Pentacostals of Cessationism. 99% of the time it's just people repeating the same arguments at each other.

But these forums are open to anyone and there is substantial input from those outside the Reformed tradition. Are you looking solely for interesting points you can fit into your understanding of the Reformed system?

 

[Magenta]

I've heard lots of people from outside the Reformed tradition make interesting points or distinctions

Many cannot seem to make a distinction between making choices and having a will that is not free.

They are fixated on the idea that making choices equals free will.

When the fact of the matter is that Scripture teaches no such thing.

Jesus was able to align His human will with the will of God.

The free willers give the natural man that same ability.

They ascribe to the natural man things only the spiritual man is capable of.

 

[Magenta]

You heard His voice and you followed Him? Hmm.

John 10:27-28

 

[posthuman]

And your point is what? God creates us innately evil and then swoops down with mercy by removing what He created so we can believe?

the Bible is very clear that God does not author evil, and i believe that.

the worldview given by it is that we have all been, as it were, poisoned, through the sin of Adam and Eve - we were in them when they did this ((c.f.e. Hebrews 7:9-10)). the earth - dust - was cursed for Adam's sake, and ours also, being in him.

that is like dross in silver; what ore is taken from the earth must be purified. that doesn't mean silver and gold are created foul, but that there are impurities mingled in them in their state, that must be removed. the lump has leaven, but the wheat isn't leaven.

 

[Magenta]

the Bible is very clear that God does not author evil, and i believe that.

the worldview given by it is that we have all been, as it were, poisoned, through the sin of Adam and Eve - we were in them when they did this ((c.f.e. Hebrews 7:9-10)). the earth - dust - was cursed for Adam's sake, and ours also, being in him.

that is like dross in silver; what ore is taken from the earth must be purified. that doesn't mean silver and gold are created foul, but that there are impurities mingled in them in their state, that must be removed.

We must not forget, either, that Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of the world...

to conquer sin and death, and to die for our sins, that we would be reconciled to God and attain to
life ever after (and escape the second death) by grace through faith in His shed righteous blood.

It was inevitable that Adam would sin, as he was of the natural world. God certainly knew he would.