Understanding God’s election
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Of course they (the Calvinites) cannot harmonize Scripture.
They don't CHOOSE to do so WILLINGLY.
For the most part, they are OBSESSED with damning and condemning as many souls as they possibly can, creating ALL KINDS
of synthetic groups and categories of the "unsaved" and "unsavable" and "didn't get saved" and "cannot be saved".
Sick.
They don't CHOOSE to do so WILLINGLY.
For the most part, they are OBSESSED with damning and condemning as many souls as they possibly can, creating ALL KINDS
of synthetic groups and categories of the "unsaved" and "unsavable" and "didn't get saved" and "cannot be saved".
Sick.
All of that pseudo-philosophical bloviating is a figment of your addled imagination.
The Scripture NEVER says what you are saying.
The Scripture NEVER says that we share ANY glory that God is due for His completed work of salvation.
Its all hyper-Cal madness being shrieked from a padded room.
The Scripture NEVER says what you are saying.
The Scripture NEVER says that we share ANY glory that God is due for His completed work of salvation.
Its all hyper-Cal madness being shrieked from a padded room.
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That Prayer is for the Church, consisting of jews and Gentiles. Jesus is praying for their [the apostles] to have a fruitful ministry in the Gentile world, that the Gentile world of the elect will come to believe in Him through their word Vs 20
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
The elect Gentiles are oft times called the world seperate from the jews Rom 11 12,15
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For if the casting away of them[jewish nation] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
The elect Gentiles are oft times called the world seperate from the jews Rom 11 12,15
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For if the casting away of them[jewish nation] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
This is the only marraige that is taking place.
jn6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
This is the only marraige that is taking place.
jn6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Hey man. You seen to be the referee around here right?
Well I have a question for you:
1) Did Adam and the Woman "save themselves" when they confessed their sin at their trial in Genesis 3?
2) What then did God do after their confession?
3) Do you (or any Calvinite) have even the slightest idea of what I am talking about?
And another thing, when you testify truthfully at your OWN trial (and believe me you, me and everyone else is ON TRIAL right now), is this a meritorious "work"? Or nothing more than your legal, moral and ethical responsibility toward your God?
BTW buddy, Genesis 3 utterly DESTROYS the Calvinite theories root and branch.
But for some reason, the Calvinites just cannot figure out why.
Too bad so sad.
Well I have a question for you:
1) Did Adam and the Woman "save themselves" when they confessed their sin at their trial in Genesis 3?
2) What then did God do after their confession?
3) Do you (or any Calvinite) have even the slightest idea of what I am talking about?
And another thing, when you testify truthfully at your OWN trial (and believe me you, me and everyone else is ON TRIAL right now), is this a meritorious "work"? Or nothing more than your legal, moral and ethical responsibility toward your God?
BTW buddy, Genesis 3 utterly DESTROYS the Calvinite theories root and branch.
But for some reason, the Calvinites just cannot figure out why.
Too bad so sad.
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So, how does your post answer my questions in my 5554? At this point in time, not one of you freewillers have offered any rational, intelligent, thoughtful or biblical explanation as to why any freewiller would pray for lost souls since the salvation buck does NOT stop with God! It stops with unregenerate sinners, who you say are in complete control of their eternal destiny. So...WHY pray to someone who is ultimately not in control of the situation? Explain to me how that makes any sense whatsoever!
Thus far, all you freewillers have scored a big fat F on this specific question. Maybe you guys need to get some of your hot shot FWT teachers over here to help you out and speak up for you.
P.S. Maybe the prayer life of some of you freewillers is actually in sync with FWT, and none of you ever pray for the lost, in which case your prayer life would be consistent with your theology. If this is the case, don't be shy and bashful. Just tell us that you, in fact, don't see any practical reason to pray for the lost. I mean...there is something to be said for consistency....
PPS: For the umpteenth time, the "all men" is defined in the context of the passage which you continue to ignore. The "all men" are Gentiles and, therefore, the term "all" is used in a limited sense, since Jews are not in view in the context. Also, Paul was a staunch believer in the Doctrines of Grace, so it would make eminently good sense for him and Timothy to pray to the One whom the buck actually does stop, and is not merely a potential savior who only observes and reacts to men's "free" will choices! In Paul's theology, the inmates are not running the asylum.
Thus far, all you freewillers have scored a big fat F on this specific question. Maybe you guys need to get some of your hot shot FWT teachers over here to help you out and speak up for you.
P.S. Maybe the prayer life of some of you freewillers is actually in sync with FWT, and none of you ever pray for the lost, in which case your prayer life would be consistent with your theology. If this is the case, don't be shy and bashful. Just tell us that you, in fact, don't see any practical reason to pray for the lost. I mean...there is something to be said for consistency....
PPS: For the umpteenth time, the "all men" is defined in the context of the passage which you continue to ignore. The "all men" are Gentiles and, therefore, the term "all" is used in a limited sense, since Jews are not in view in the context. Also, Paul was a staunch believer in the Doctrines of Grace, so it would make eminently good sense for him and Timothy to pray to the One whom the buck actually does stop, and is not merely a potential savior who only observes and reacts to men's "free" will choices! In Paul's theology, the inmates are not running the asylum.
No one denies the Marriage Covenant. It does not change anything I have posted, in fact it fits like a hand in the glove;
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Actually, they are the point! Since you freewillers insist that God loves each and every person in the world (Jn 3:16 your favorite "proof" text), then why didn't Jesus pray for the entire world, i.e. each and every person in it? Could it be that he didn't because he understood what he taught earlier in his ministry in Mat 7:23? How in the world could Jesus in this latter passage state unequivocally that in eternity "I never knew you" -- meaning that he had never set his personal, intimate covenantal affections upon them -- EVER!? It certainly appears that this self-deceived group of which he speaks and to whom he will give this very bad news on judgment day are all a bunch of Esaus!
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Excellent observation!
What I green-highlighted above is dead on the mark and I myself have often said the Jews never thought of themselves as being an integral part of the pagan world! They considered themselves to be SEPARATE from the world. And we can see this played out in scripture time and time again. Start with the Book of Galatians, for example, where Paul speaks about how the Jews had this custom of keeping themselves separate from the Gentiles. Or in 1Tim 2:1-4 that is mangled by freewillers because they ignore the context -- the context in which Paul himself defines who "all" men are, which are in fact Gentiles. And we can see this again in 1Jn 2:2 wherein the apostle clearly makes a distinction between his original audience (primarily Jews) and the "whole world", i.e. Gentiles.
What I green-highlighted above is dead on the mark and I myself have often said the Jews never thought of themselves as being an integral part of the pagan world! They considered themselves to be SEPARATE from the world. And we can see this played out in scripture time and time again. Start with the Book of Galatians, for example, where Paul speaks about how the Jews had this custom of keeping themselves separate from the Gentiles. Or in 1Tim 2:1-4 that is mangled by freewillers because they ignore the context -- the context in which Paul himself defines who "all" men are, which are in fact Gentiles. And we can see this again in 1Jn 2:2 wherein the apostle clearly makes a distinction between his original audience (primarily Jews) and the "whole world", i.e. Gentiles.
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I included some pertinent verses which contradict the conclusion you draw from your verses that God hates those He does not choose to save--which is a blasphemous accusation that results from not arguing with the evil angel of false light. My argument aligns or harmonizes with all pertinent scripture as follows:
[Jhn 17:9 KJV] "I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Harmonization: Whoever believes in Jesus becomes one of them for whom Jesus prayed. Jesus does not say that God desires to give Jesus only a few and condemn the majority to hell.
DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”
Harmonization: Those who choose death/curses remain part of the world for whom Jesus did not pray.
MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
Harmonization: Jesus longed or prayed for the unbelieving world to repent and become willing to choose life/blessings.
1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
Harmonization: God wants everyone in the world to be saved although some choose not to be gathered under His wings. IOW, God initiates; souls cooperate–or not. (Cf. RM 11:5-6, EPH 2:4-10)
RM 11:7, “What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did”,
Harmonization: This seems to speak of both corporate Israel and elect individuals including those from corporate “Gentiledom”.
An all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart. Thus, we conclude that some Jews cooperated with God, but others did not and shut their ears and eyes to GW (RM 11:7-10, ACTS 28:25-28), because the Jews as a whole did not fall completely beyond recovery or from the possibility of being saved (RM 11:11-14, 1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16). God allows Jews to be hardened and become ungodly enemies just as the Gentiles were (cf. ACTS 28:26-27), so that He may have mercy on them all–that is, on all He chooses to elect, which is all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who reflect His love by accepting Messiah/Christ (DT 30:19, MT 23:37). In this way His POS is just (2THS 1:6).
EPH 1:3-14, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”
Harmonization: What the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1TM 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2THS 2:10).
Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
Harmonization: Jesus does not say that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell.
Luke 8:10, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'”
Harmonization: Both Jesus and Paul teach that the reason folks do not understand is because their hearts are hardened or callous (MT 13:14-15, ACTS 28:26-27).
Luke 10:21, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.”
Harmonization: This means that although the Gospel/salvation is available to all, it may be hard for the educated as well as the rich to go through the eye of that needle (MT 19:23-24).
JN 12:32, "I, when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to myself."
This drawing is akin to calling, but it does not mean that all will cooperate and be chosen or saved.
JN 15:16, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
Harmonization: This refers to MT 1:16, which records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.
ACTS 16:14b, "The Lord opened her [Lydia’s] heart to respond to Paul’s message."
Harmonization: Everyone else needs God’s grace also, and JN 3:16 indicates that God softens everyone's heart so they may believe--but this grace is not irresistible.
RM 3:10-18, "There is no one righteous, not even one...".
Harmonization: This does NOT say that man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, but rather...
RM 3:23-26, "All have sinned... and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus... to demonstrate His righteousness... so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
RM 9:11-16, "...Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!... It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy... God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."
Harmonization: This does not say that God wants to harden anyone, although He could have chosen to do so, but rather...
RM 9:23, " What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy... not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles... who did not pursue righteousness but have obtained it--a righteousness that is by faith."
2TM 2:25-26, "Opponents must be gently instructed in the hope that God will grant them repentance... and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
Harmonization: LK 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free, and so God must give sinners sufficient sense for repenting/escaping, because...
2PT 3:9, "The Lord is not... wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." although He allows people to believe a lie...
2THS 2:10, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved."
P.S. regarding synonyms for "elect":
elect (MT 24:22,24&31) = disciples (MT 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (JN 3:3&7) = believers (JN 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (ACTS 9:32, RM 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (ACTS 11:26, 26:28) = saved (ACTS 16:30-31) = those in Christ (RM 8:1, EPH 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (RM 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (RM 8:14-21) = the grafted in (RM 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1CR 1:2) = God’s people (1CR 16:1) = church/saints (2CR 1:1 = the faithful/holy (EPH 1:1, PHP 1:2) = chosen in Christ (EPH 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (EPH 2:19) = soldier/worker (PHL v.2&24)
[Jhn 17:9 KJV] "I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Harmonization: Whoever believes in Jesus becomes one of them for whom Jesus prayed. Jesus does not say that God desires to give Jesus only a few and condemn the majority to hell.
DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”
Harmonization: Those who choose death/curses remain part of the world for whom Jesus did not pray.
MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
Harmonization: Jesus longed or prayed for the unbelieving world to repent and become willing to choose life/blessings.
1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
Harmonization: God wants everyone in the world to be saved although some choose not to be gathered under His wings. IOW, God initiates; souls cooperate–or not. (Cf. RM 11:5-6, EPH 2:4-10)
RM 11:7, “What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did”,
Harmonization: This seems to speak of both corporate Israel and elect individuals including those from corporate “Gentiledom”.
An all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart. Thus, we conclude that some Jews cooperated with God, but others did not and shut their ears and eyes to GW (RM 11:7-10, ACTS 28:25-28), because the Jews as a whole did not fall completely beyond recovery or from the possibility of being saved (RM 11:11-14, 1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16). God allows Jews to be hardened and become ungodly enemies just as the Gentiles were (cf. ACTS 28:26-27), so that He may have mercy on them all–that is, on all He chooses to elect, which is all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who reflect His love by accepting Messiah/Christ (DT 30:19, MT 23:37). In this way His POS is just (2THS 1:6).
EPH 1:3-14, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”
Harmonization: What the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1TM 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2THS 2:10).
Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
Harmonization: Jesus does not say that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell.
Luke 8:10, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'”
Harmonization: Both Jesus and Paul teach that the reason folks do not understand is because their hearts are hardened or callous (MT 13:14-15, ACTS 28:26-27).
Luke 10:21, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.”
Harmonization: This means that although the Gospel/salvation is available to all, it may be hard for the educated as well as the rich to go through the eye of that needle (MT 19:23-24).
JN 12:32, "I, when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to myself."
This drawing is akin to calling, but it does not mean that all will cooperate and be chosen or saved.
JN 15:16, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
Harmonization: This refers to MT 1:16, which records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.
ACTS 16:14b, "The Lord opened her [Lydia’s] heart to respond to Paul’s message."
Harmonization: Everyone else needs God’s grace also, and JN 3:16 indicates that God softens everyone's heart so they may believe--but this grace is not irresistible.
RM 3:10-18, "There is no one righteous, not even one...".
Harmonization: This does NOT say that man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, but rather...
RM 3:23-26, "All have sinned... and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus... to demonstrate His righteousness... so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
RM 9:11-16, "...Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!... It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy... God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."
Harmonization: This does not say that God wants to harden anyone, although He could have chosen to do so, but rather...
RM 9:23, " What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy... not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles... who did not pursue righteousness but have obtained it--a righteousness that is by faith."
2TM 2:25-26, "Opponents must be gently instructed in the hope that God will grant them repentance... and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
Harmonization: LK 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free, and so God must give sinners sufficient sense for repenting/escaping, because...
2PT 3:9, "The Lord is not... wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." although He allows people to believe a lie...
2THS 2:10, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved."
P.S. regarding synonyms for "elect":
elect (MT 24:22,24&31) = disciples (MT 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (JN 3:3&7) = believers (JN 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (ACTS 9:32, RM 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (ACTS 11:26, 26:28) = saved (ACTS 16:30-31) = those in Christ (RM 8:1, EPH 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (RM 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (RM 8:14-21) = the grafted in (RM 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1CR 1:2) = God’s people (1CR 16:1) = church/saints (2CR 1:1 = the faithful/holy (EPH 1:1, PHP 1:2) = chosen in Christ (EPH 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (EPH 2:19) = soldier/worker (PHL v.2&24)
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