Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
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Jesus told the man with the withered hand to stretch forth his hand, the thing he could not do.
If you really want to know my Christian education? ....
I should tell you about my pastor-teacher who has been my post graduate study since graduating from the Bible college.
He taught six nights a week, from Hebrew and Greek texts. And, taught historical backgrounds for a passage setting
when applicable.
Now, that I could agree to get involved with....
The other, was a Bible college that taught the basics on an excellent level when I attended.
It has shut down.
But, my pastor? His materials are still available for your evaluation.
There have been over 270 pages debating the subject of God's election but I've really not learned anything but the side of the debate that each person has come to, and why. However, I am interested to know how each particular conclusion pans out practically speaking. How does either side of the debate affect our steps going forward and our mission, whether individually or as a community. How does your position apply in regard to the adopted outlook? How do you see yourself within the reality, and how do you see others?
You still did not reply to my entire post, in which I cited many "clobber" verses, mainly in the NT, whereas your list cites only OT passages, which is okay but we must be cognizant of the fact that the OT did not have a very good understanding of God's grace or of hell as a just punishment of sin. My comments:
GN 19:17-26 - God clobbered Sodom and Gomorrah with burning sulfur for their sins, which included illicit sex.
GN 38:7 - God clobbered Judah's oldest son with death for being wicked.
EX 28 - has to do with making garments for priests. 20:8? - God clobbered Israel with the curse of Sabbath law?
LV 10 - In v. 1-2 God clobbered Nabab & Abihu with being burned alive for offering unauthorized fire.
NM 31 - God clobbered the Midianite men and women with being killed by Moses' men as vengeance for tempting the Israelites to follow Balaam of Beor (cf. NM 22-24).
HOS 13 - Hosea prophesied that God would clobber Samaria with violent death because they rebelled against Him.
Okay, thanks for these citations, which I will consider working into my website, although we must be leery of viewing historical passages telling what happened as prescriptive passages telling what we should do.
I understand your frustration as being similar to mine that I posted on another thread and will also say here by way of a constructive criticism: May I suggest that we try to improve our discussions on CC by doing what we can to keep the general direction going toward essential agreement/unity rather than being content (or even seeming to prefer) getting stuck going in circles regarding how to interpret GW? In my experience on CC we might accomplish this goal if we would bother to provide quotes when we accuse someone of saying something objectionable, because this should enable folks to clear up confusion and misunderstanding rather than veering off into ad hominem attacks, projection and arguing (cf. 1TM 6:3-4, 2TM 2:23, TIT 3:9-10, RM 16:17, 1CR 1:10, PHP 4:2). Another thing I have noticed is the tendency of some to adopt "either/or thinking" as their default position instead of "both/and harmonization", which is often needed in order to sew Scripture together into one tapestry without cutting off parts. Again, this attitude should help us avoid the temptation to be combative and judgmental, although that might seem like the more fun or less boring way to go. Finally, it seems to me there is a dearth of discussion about God’s all-lovingness, which may reflect our own hateful tendencies, so let us be wary of blaspheming or insulting the righteousness of the HS and persevere in being humble or teachable, admitting our fallibility. Thanks! :^)
False, service is the result and result of Salvation to God. Jesus blood saves his people in order to serve God Heb 9:14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Stop making unfounded and unlearned comments in order to deny truth
IMO there was quite a lot of useful information provided.
Understanding the Genesis 3 scenario is critical.
This sets the precedent of the foregoing.
Then of course.....Genesis 4. This conversation need not take place to begin with if God was a Calvinite.
Actually, no need for any Bible at all. Why go thru all of this trouble?
I mean, the Calvinites say that you cannot possibly alter the outcome of the pre-creation lottery.
Right? Isn't that right Calvinites?
[Gen 4:5 NKJV]
but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.
[Gen 4:6 NKJV]
So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
[Gen 4:7 NKJV]
"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire [is] for you, but you should rule over it."
Here is my take on the folly and failings of the Calvinites.
They don't get it, and won't get it. Even when offered on a silver platter.
5 or 6 verses that they fail to comprehend = Calvinite-ism.
At least @rogerg admitted that he had NO IDEA of the PROFOUND meaning of the "types" represented by Joseph and his brothers
in Genesis. And then, after these passages were rightly exegeted for his benefit, he REFUSED to recant his position where he believes
that Israel is kicked to the curb forever and his view on the millennium.
[Isa 28:13 KJV]
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
You admitted your TOTAL IGNORANCE on this matter.
Therefore, you had/have no assessment or view at all, and you have just lied.
And another thing: every legit Bible scholar agrees with my view, as anyone can easily prove.
Beware the leaven of the Calvinites!
If election is to salvation, then you must claim Jesus needed salvation because he was God’s elect. Is this what you believe?
But wait. You said that my interpretation was incorrect. And now you say that there NO interpretation exists.
Which of course is absurd, seeing as ALL Bible scholars of repute know better.
But then again, the Reformed Calvinites never did understand the OT.
And if they did, they would no longer be Reformed Calvinites.
"rogerg said:
Because your interpretations are incorrect."
I also believe that the Bible is knowable and written to be understood.
But it takes great care and a deft touch to see the FULLNESS of the message intentionally portrayed in the INTENTIONAL PATTERNS.