Understanding God’s election

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keepingthingsreal said:
Yes, I am saying that God's sovereignty is not being derided here by non-Calvinists. Do you know what the differences between a sovereign and a dictator are? Are people allowed to vote (make choices) in a sovereignty?

What questions did you put to me earlier? I have honestly tried to answer ever question posed to me here (I still owe Cameron one answer), so if I truly did not answer a question that you posed to me, then that was not on purpose. Can you link me to it? I have been bombarded with notifications since I jumped back into this conversation, and I am honestly trying to keep up with them all.
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Yes I suppose it is true you have not been part of this conversation long enough to see how people who unashamedly promote the false doctrine of the free will of the natural man, who is a slave to sin with his heart of stone and hostile to God mind, being a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, taken captive to the will of the devil and being explicitly said to be incapable of submitting to God's law, but can somehow, according to those who hold that false doctrine, somehow that natural man who is explicitly said to be incapable can submit, obey, and believe the foolishness he hears when the gospel is preached, without help from God, some have even said, and certainly without the help from God that I believe happens before a person can come to believe and fully submit... Reading between the lines it is obvious to see that they believe it is their free will that sets them free and not Jesus Christ, as the Bible says. It is also obvious that people confuse free will with making choices as if they were one and the same thing when they are not.

If you stick around long enough you will see some of these same free will proponents deride and mock the sovereignty of God. Personal revelation also gets mocked and scoffed, though that gets denied too. And it actually goes back a lot further than that and has been done quite a few times. It has also been claimed that personal revelation makes God unfair because He does not reveal Himself in exactly the same way to every single person... even though the Bible is full of such examples. To hear such people talk it's obvious they have never met the living Lord.

I am at work right now and on my phone which means I can't search for and or link to anything but I didn't get up this morning until around 7 or so, so if you go back to then in this thread you may find where I responded to a number of your posts, some of which had questions I asked you.
 
cv5 said:
The Father gives the Son the Bride.....who WILLINGLY said YES to the marriage proposal.
You know.....just like any father gives his little girl to the groom who he approves of and who wooed her successfully.

So simple so easy so attainable.

However the Calvinites are quite expert at making the patently simple absurdly complicated and patently impossible.
No happy marriages or happy endings allowed by the doomer Calvinite home-wreckers!
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They think they are geniuses...

What a pride trap Satan set for them.
 
keepingthingsreal said:
I don't mean for this sound offensive, but I honestly don't know what OT you are reading. If you go through the genealogies in the OT, then you will discover that the nation of Israel did not appear on the scene until around 2200 years after the time of Adam. Many Gentiles, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham were saved prior to that time. With such truly being the case, your alleged "fact" is anything but factual.
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All true. But then God did choose to form the nation Israel. And salvation is limited to almost exclusively that nation. Any problem with this?
Also, difference between election and selection?
Also, without God's intervention, would Isaac have ever been born? Any significance to this?
 
HeIsHere said:
My point is God acting and not acting gives the same result, His limited positive action for some is a negative action for others who do not receive the benefit of the same positive action.

Yeah that is right!

And I pretty sure I never used the word decreeing.
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Didn't God act on behalf of Israel and not on behalf of the Egyptians? Are you suggesting God was in some way wrong in this?
 
Cameron143 said:
Didn't God act on behalf of Israel and not on behalf of the Egyptians? Are you suggesting God was in some way wrong in this?
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Now now Cameron you know very well that according to heishere God is unfair because He did not reveal Himself to the Egyptians exactly the same way He did to Moses and the Hebrews. Actually according to heishere God is unfair because He revealed Himself to Moses in ways He did not reveal Himself to other people, including the Hebrews.
 
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keepingthingsreal said:
Unconditional election

Unconditional election is a Calvinist doctrine relating to predestination that describes the actions and motives of God prior to his creation of the world, when he predestined some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest he left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. Wikipedia

I rightly understand "election" in the biblical sense. If the definition given above truly represents what Calvinists believe in relation to "election", then they are clueless; whether ignorantly or deliberately.

Furthermore, they are clueless in relation to the actual biblical meaning of "predestination."
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So answer my other questions.
 
Magenta said:
Yes I suppose it is true you have not been part of this conversation long enough to see how people who unashamedly promote the false doctrine of the free will of the natural man, who is a slave to sin with his heart of stone and hostile to God mind, being a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, taken captive to the will of the devil and being explicitly said to be incapable of submitting to God's law, but can somehow, according to those who hold that false doctrine, somehow that natural man who is explicitly said to be incapable can submit, obey, and believe the foolishness he hears when the gospel is preached, without help from God, some have even said, and certainly without the help from God that I believe happens before a person can come to believe and fully submit... Reading between the lines it is obvious to see that they believe it is their free will that sets them free and not Jesus Christ, as the Bible says. It is also obvious that people confuse free will with making choices as if they were one and the same thing when they are not.
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Lol. Your opening run-on sentence gave the Apostle Paul a run for his money.

I am not going to address every verse that you alluded to, but I will address one of them to hopefully make a point.

Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

In the overall context of Paul's epistle to the Romans, as well as in the overall context of all of Paul's epistles, I do not believe that this verse means what you seemingly believe it to mean. In other words, in context, Paul was talking about the inability of an unregenerate man to keep God's law. Why? Because the law is spiritual, and a carnal unregenerate man, who is void of God's indwelling Holy Spirit, can never keep it. That is what Paul was actually talking about here. In other words, he was not suggesting that an unregenerate man is incapable of making freewill choices, which, if I am understanding you correctly, seems to be what you are suggesting.
Magenta said:
If you stick around long enough you will see some of these same free will proponents deride and mock the sovereignty of God.
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That would depend upon one's understanding of the word sovereignty. I asked you earlier (I know that you are busy at work, so I am not accusing you of avoiding my question) if people can vote (make choices) in a sovereignty? Well, can they?
Magenta said:
Personal revelation also gets mocked and scoffed, though that gets denied too. And it actually goes back a lot further than that and has been done quite a few times. It has also been claimed that personal revelation makes God unfair because He does not reveal Himself in exactly the same way to every single person... even though the Bible is full of such examples. To hear such people talk it's obvious they have never met the living Lord.
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That would depend upon what those personal revelations are. Are they in line with God's word or contrary to it? I haven't read those conversations, so I cannot make a judgment either way.
Magenta said:
I am at work right now and on my phone which means I can't search for and or link to anything but I didn't get up this morning until around 7 or so, so if you go back to then in this thread you may find where I responded to a number of your posts, some of which had questions I asked you.
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As far as I know, I have now answered all of your questions. If I honestly and inadvertently missed any, then feel free to just ask them again. Thank you.
 
Genez said:
They think they are geniuses...

What a pride trap Satan set for them.
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Contrarily, NO good father would give his little girl to ANY groom without her consent, nor would any good father do so without a good faith genuine offer of marriage, or without a loving and sincere wooing of her.
 
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keepingthingsreal said:
In the overall context of Paul's epistle to the Romans, as well as in the overall context of all of Paul's epistles, I do not believe that this verse
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This verse??? I alluded to a multitude of verses. Verses which regularly get overlooked and ignored. Taken together they point to man's inability which gets treated as if it were a non-issue or a false precept that only Calvinists adhered to when it is also put forth by Arminius and in Molinism.
 
Does anybody know where I can hire both a secretary and a stenographer? Lol. My notifications have been BLOWING UP since I rejoined this conversation earlier today. I need to shave and jump in the shower before I get rejected from God's kingdom. You know, cleanliness is next to godliness and all that. :p I'll be back later. Maybe I'll quickly peek at one more notification...
 
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Magenta said:
This verse??? I alluded to a multitude of verses. Verses which regularly get overlooked and ignored. Taken together they point to man's inability which gets treated as if it were a non-issue or a false precept that only Calvinists adhered to when it is also put forth by Arminius and in Molinism.
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I need to log off for a bit in a moment. Truth be told, I believe that you have taken every verse that you alluded to out of context. I am not seeking to pick a fight with you or anybody else. Instead, I am just being honest.

As far as "ists" and "isms" are concerned, as I mentioned on another thread a while back, I really do not know too much about them. Just some simple basics. I spend the bulk of time in the Bible, and not researching what others believe.
 
keepingthingsreal said:
Does anybody know where I can hire both a secretary and a stenographer? Lol. My notifications have been BLOWING UP since I rejoined this conversation earlier today. I need to shave and jump in the shower before I get rejected from God's kingdom. You know, cleanliness is next to godliness and all that. :p I'll be back later. Maybe I'll quickly peek at one more notification...
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So lovely for you that now you have people to talk to you LOL
 
keepingthingsreal said:
I need to log off for a bit in a moment. Truth be told, I believe that you have taken every verse that you alluded to out of context. I am not seeking to pick a fight with you or anybody else. Instead, I am just being honest.

As far as "ists" and "isms" are concerned, as I mentioned on another thread a while back, I really do not know too much about them. Just some simple basics. I spend the bulk of time in the Bible, and not researching what others believe.
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Yes I do understand that's what people say... they paint the natural man as such a lovely guy despite all the Bible has to say about him, and I'm supposed to think that anytime I reference those verses I'm taking them out of context And they don't really say after all what they actually do say. I don't study those other people too like Calvin but I get accused of being one of them.
 
Genez said:
The Law was given for the saved to live by.
It was also given to teach all that they are sinners by defining sins.
That is why the Law ultimately demanded atonement.

The Law was not given to get men saved by following it.

You were either a good believer (followed the Law). Blessed Jews in the Land.
Or, you were a bad believer (rebelled against the Law). Disciplined and judged by disasters of war, famine, etc.

The unbelievers in the land who did follow, followed the Law by means of peer pressure and conformity. (like many Catholics do)
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mstektytyat
 
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