Understanding God’s election
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"Believe in the Church Age"? What does that even mean!?
But Moses was in Christ! The OT saints looked forward to the Cross; whereas the NT saints look back to the Cross. If Moses was not "in Christ" then Moses was lost; "for salvation is found in no one else, as there is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved." (Act 4:12).
Also, salvation is a package deal. How dishonest of you to separate out the Glorification aspect to it, ignoring the fact that no one will ever be glorified until they are justified and sanctified.
All Calvin did was systematize the Five Doctrines of Grace to make them easier to understand. Those doctrines have always been in the bible.
Mr. Genez, when asked on what basis does God save infants, babies and young children who are not old enough to have a true knowledge of good and evil, opined yesterday that the basis is the "Cross". This is a rather nebulous answer since the Gospel of that same Cross explicitly demands quite often in scripture that people repent of their sins and believe on Christ. So, I challenged him to provide biblical proof that the Gospel of Christ's atoning work covers the souls of infants, babies and young children. Naturally, he came up with nothing.
Further, Mr. Genez is totally oblivious to two facts: If God does indeed save infants, babies and young children, this means he does unilaterally and sovereignly save the HELPLESS elect of humanity, which is a Reformed position. I have always maintained that the entire human race is as helpless as Genez's "infants, babies and young children", and as helpless as the Israelites were in Egypt when God rescued them from Pharaoh's bondage.
And secondly, if God does indeed save the helpless young, then the basis for that salvation must be God's free, sovereign will which he expresses by his decrees. It must mean that God who predestined the physical death of the very young also predestined their salvation! And again, these truths are also a Reformed position, which Mr. Genez wishes to selectively hijack for one class of helpless humanity (infants, babies, etc.). So...here is my biblical proof for the salvation of all the helpless of humanity:
Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those WHOM (not to be confused with WHAT) he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
ESV
So, while Genez tried to dichotomize the doctrine of Glorification (the final phase to man's salvation) from the other two aspects, we can easily see that glorification depends entirely on God's effectual call and justification (v.30) and sanctification (v.29).
I submit, therefore, that the above passage is the foundational truth for how God sovereignly rescues all helpless humanity -- not just a selective few as Genez would have us believe. But he and others here are far too proud and arrogant to admit to their helpless, weak, and vulnerable condition. They're far too busy back-slapping themselves for being smart enough, wise enough, pious enough, spiritual enough or religious enough to have availed themselves of God's great salvation.
In addition to all the above, there is a reason why scripture refers even to adult believers as "little children" (Mat 11:25; Lk 10:21; Jn 13:33; Gal 4:19; 1Jn 2:1, 12,28; 3:7, 18; 4:4; 5:21).
Further, Mr. Genez is totally oblivious to two facts: If God does indeed save infants, babies and young children, this means he does unilaterally and sovereignly save the HELPLESS elect of humanity, which is a Reformed position. I have always maintained that the entire human race is as helpless as Genez's "infants, babies and young children", and as helpless as the Israelites were in Egypt when God rescued them from Pharaoh's bondage.
And secondly, if God does indeed save the helpless young, then the basis for that salvation must be God's free, sovereign will which he expresses by his decrees. It must mean that God who predestined the physical death of the very young also predestined their salvation! And again, these truths are also a Reformed position, which Mr. Genez wishes to selectively hijack for one class of helpless humanity (infants, babies, etc.). So...here is my biblical proof for the salvation of all the helpless of humanity:
Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those WHOM (not to be confused with WHAT) he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
ESV
So, while Genez tried to dichotomize the doctrine of Glorification (the final phase to man's salvation) from the other two aspects, we can easily see that glorification depends entirely on God's effectual call and justification (v.30) and sanctification (v.29).
I submit, therefore, that the above passage is the foundational truth for how God sovereignly rescues all helpless humanity -- not just a selective few as Genez would have us believe. But he and others here are far too proud and arrogant to admit to their helpless, weak, and vulnerable condition. They're far too busy back-slapping themselves for being smart enough, wise enough, pious enough, spiritual enough or religious enough to have availed themselves of God's great salvation.
In addition to all the above, there is a reason why scripture refers even to adult believers as "little children" (Mat 11:25; Lk 10:21; Jn 13:33; Gal 4:19; 1Jn 2:1, 12,28; 3:7, 18; 4:4; 5:21).
Which meaning? Some take it one way, and some take it another. It seems some reverse the order.
Ephesians 1:3 + Philippians 2:13
"IN Christ" means God elected/chose a POS to elect potentially all humanity, whom He elected to love and atone for, IF they exercise their God-given grace of volition/election to accept His offer/call of grace IN Christ.
The Jewish marriage covenant likewise requires consent.
The hyper-Cals think that the Householder kidnapped the mindless robotic laborers that were enslaved to perpetual serfdom
from before they were ever born.
Mat 20:1
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
Mat 20:2
And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
Mat 20:13
But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
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Likewise the consent REQURIED of Mary.
Luk 1:38
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
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Likewise the consent REQURED to seal the Sinai Covenant.
Exo 19:8
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we ***will*** do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
Is it your contention then, that the person -as a natural man- who can neither understand nor accept the things
of God, being blinded by the god of this world, captive to the will of the devil, a slave to sin and lover of darkness,
suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and hostile in his mind to the One True God of the Bible, will choose
of his own volition to believe God and the foolishness of the gospel despite being incapable of obeying?
If cannot see it in the bolded type, you are a hopeless case.
Hint:
Rom 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Jer 18:6
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
John 12:38b-40 “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”
John 12:38-40
This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”
They, (rebellious Jews) in effect.
Were as Pharaoh was in the face of the signs God gave him.
Short answer: Because God wills for humanity to have limited free will.
Longer answer: The essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27).
God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.
Thus, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Miracles are rare (not normative), except for the continual miracle of creation (cf. RM 1:20).
MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13).
God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship.
I think we would be shocked if truth prevailed in our community forums and those who embrace the Christian identity movement would admit it.
Not sure why you are so upset that I did not mention that aspect, but yes, in RM 5:12-21 Paul refers to Adam as representing sinful humanity and to Christ as representing saved humanity--although not intending to teach universal salvation. However, I don't remember him equating Eve with the Church.
There is no way to determine a figurative number of years, since the deportation of Israel and surrounding nations to Babylon occurred over several years. Of course, you think all numbers in scripture are to be taken literally, right?
And Ezek 4 has no bearing on the context of Ezek 36.
And, yes, Romans 9 does speak to the predestination of individuals. There are four individuals (not nations!) mentioned in Rom 9 as examples. The fact that these individuals eventually became nations has nothing to do with the context of Rom 9 which is focusing on the individuals BEFORE they became nations. The focus of Rom 9 is on the children (descendants) of Abraham.
Rom 9:6-8
6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all [individuals] who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through [the individual] Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
NIV
Paul goes on to prove this truth by using historical examples: Ishmael, Issac, Jacob and Esau. All INDIVIDUAL children -- two of them "natural" and two of them "spiritual" ("children of the promise")! Whose promise? God's promise! In other words, Israel's deplorable spiritual condition in the first century was always God's plan! God only gave grace and the gift of faith to his chosen "children of promise". God never intended to save each and every Jew, no more than He intends to save each and every Gentile. God chose to not bring Ishmael and Esau into a personal, saving covenant relationship with Himself. Conversely, He did determine to bring Issac and Jacob into that kind of relationship. And he determined all this in eternity.
My interpretation of Scripture is that it contends what I just posted to cv5, with right reasoning connecting some dots in a way that preserves both God's sovereignty and His all-lovingness.
When Jesus and Paul preached, they invited everyone to believe and be saved, and both blamed unbelief on people closing their ears, eyes and hearts (MT 13:14-15 & ACTS 28:26-27). Thus, they cannot blame their obstinacy on the devil, the god of this world or the one true God
In MT 13:11-12 Jesus implies that faith/volition develops gradually as people LGW. IOW, it may be limited by various environmental or experiential factors, such as intelligence and influences. Of course, faith/will is limited in what God allows it to do categorically because of our finiteness/humanity. Transhumanist pride cannot work (cf. the tower of Babel).
Wrong. Totally wrong. All wrong.There is no way to determine a figurative number of years, since the deportation of Israel and surrounding nations to Babylon occurred over several years. Of course, you think all numbers in scripture are to be taken literally, right?
And Ezek 4 has no bearing on the context of Ezek 36.
And, yes, Romans 9 does speak to the predestination of individuals. There are four individuals (not nations!) mentioned in Rom 9 as examples. The fact that these individuals eventually became nations has nothing to do with the context of Rom 9 which is focusing on the individuals BEFORE they became nations. The focus of Rom 9 is on the children (descendants) of Abraham.
Rom 9:6-8
6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all [individuals] who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through [the individual] Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
NIV
Paul goes on to prove this truth by using historical examples: Ishmael, Issac, Jacob and Esau. All INDIVIDUAL children -- two of them "natural" and two of them "spiritual" ("children of the promise")! Whose promise? God's promise! In other words, Israel's deplorable spiritual condition in the first century was always God's plan! God only gave grace and the gift of faith to his chosen "children of promise". God never intended to save each and every Jew, no more than He intends to save each and every Gentile. God chose to not bring Ishmael and Esau into a personal, saving covenant relationship with Himself. Conversely, He did determine to bring Issac and Jacob into that kind of relationship. And he determined all this in eternity.
Wrong.