Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Does a baby in utero deserve hell?

But doesn't the "baby in utero" have to repent and believe the gospel? And isn't Adam (who so many here believe was one of God's holy saints simply because God provided a covering for his nakedness ) the Federal head of the entire human race, including your "baby in utero"? And do people who die in ["saint"] Adam go to heaven or hell?

 

[Genez]

Every unbeliever God has given grace to make them able to choose what they wish.

​

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us ​

that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, ​

and godly in the present age." Titus 2:11-12​

God's grace enables the recipient while the grace is being applied, to be able to choose as he really wants to choose.

That is why all unbelievers will be found to be without excuse.

If grace was denied the unbeliever?
They would have a legitimate reason to appeal the verdict.

TULIP Calvinism hit a wall with a mistake in understanding what the Bible speaks of.
Sad to say...
Those with a streak of self righteousness like what this mistake tells them.

 

[Rufus]

Well, I bet you a million dollars that when we get to heaven we will learn the true/harmonized interpretation of Scripture is that God is all-loving and wanted all to become elect, and remain elect, but some chose not to cooperate with His will/love/POS, and therefore were broken off/became bound for hell justly, because it was due to their determination to be obstinate/callous.

God is love. But God's love is also MORAL in nature. For example, Love can do NO wrong. Furthermore, the very foundation to God's throne are justice and righteousness (Ps 89:14; 97:20). Since all humans have been imputed with Adam's sin (which legally necessitates the imputation of the Last Adam's righteousness before any soul can be saved), then that means all men come into this in a state of spiritual death and in real sense participated in Adam's sin.

Finally, God's desirative will should not be confused with his decretive will. We see this plainly right after the Fall. God very clearly decreed Eve's salvation, but there's no such decree for Adam.

P.S. It's very sporting and big of you to make a bet that you can never pay or collect upon. When we die we bring to heaven the very same thing we did when we came into this world with -- the skin on our backs.

 

[Kroogz]

God condemned us all at birth. We had no say in the matter. While the Calvvies say," We deserved it!!!" God says," I will condemn them ALL at birth, therefore I can offer Grace to ALL." And to those who are unaccountable, those who don't know their left from right ,He is free to save them....Babies,mentally ill ect.....
Jonah 4:11
Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?”

To all those who can understand His Gospel.......

Ecclesiastes 3:10
I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’ ”

Isaiah 52:10
The Lord has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations; And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.

 

[Rufus]

Every unbeliever God has given grace to make them able to choose what they wish.

​

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us ​

that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, ​

and godly in the present age." Titus 2:11-12​

God's grace enables the recipient while the grace is being applied, to be able to choose as he really wants to choose.

That is why all unbelievers will be found to be without excuse.

If grace was denied the unbeliever?
They would have a legitimate reason to appeal the verdict.

TULIP Calvinism hit a wall with a mistake in understanding what the Bible speaks of.
Sad to say...
Those with a streak of self righteousness like what this mistake tells them.

So the fallen angels have a good case against God, heh? What I bolded above truly reveals you mindset. What legitimate reason would the unbeliever have -- that he was entitled to God's grace? God owed it to him? Don't you know that the sons of men, themselves being DARKNESS, hate the Light and love the darkness because their deeds are evil? Men are lovers of themselves, lovers of money, lovers of pleasure -- but not lovers of God!

You have such a high moral/spiritual opinion of yourself, apparently, that you have absolutely no idea how the Doctrines of Grace, once embedded into a believer's soul, can only HUMBLE that soul! I KNOW in my heart of hearts that there wasn't and still isn't one scintilla of my own personal righteousness when God saved this miserable, wretched sinner. God saved me in SPITE of myself and not based upon any merit. And the longer I live, the more deeply this incredible truth becomes etched into my heart and soul.

 

[rogerg]

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age." Titus 2:11-12

If the grace of God brings salvation as the verses informs us, given that it does bring salvation, then all those to whom it appears must become saved given that it had appeared to them. But, since not everyone becomes saved, then the “all men” cannot mean every man, but only those chosen to salvation who therefore must become saved.

 

[Rufus]

R

What a pity you refuse to recognize the NT cannot exist without the foundation of the Old.

Pick and choose what covenants you respect.
I'll trust timeless God knows what he's talking about when he speaks.

I only too well do I know that. But prove to me that God made a covenant with Adam. That covenant is figment of more than few people's imaginations. The first covenant God made was with Noah. And the first redemptive covenant God made was with Abraham -- both covenants are in the OT, right? So...what is the point to your first sentence?

I respect all the covenants because they are the foundation to the most Glorious Covenant of them all -- the New Covenants which fulfills all the other covenants in the OT.

 

[Rufus]

If the grace of God brings salvation as the verses informs us, given that it does bring salvation, then all those to whom it appears must become saved given that it had appeared to them. But, since not everyone becomes saved, then the “all men” cannot mean every man, but only those chosen to salvation who therefore must become saved.

Not only that but I believe that passage is teaching that Christ, who is the embodiment of Grace has appeared to all men (Jews who wanted him dead and to Gentiles who finally caved to their demands).

 

[rogerg]

Not only that but I believe that passage is teaching that Christ, who is the embodiment of Grace has appeared to all men (Jews who wanted him dead and to Gentiles who finally caved to their demands).

I understood the "appeared" to mean appeared in the spiritual sense (hence the "all men"), not in a physical sense. Christ did appear physically to those you mentioned, but I don't believe that appearance necessarily resulted in salvation. In the spiritual sense, however, I believe that all (men) whom Christ appears to (spiritually), must be or become saved, because as the verse tells us, grace brings salvation.
I didn't do too well explaining it I know- kind of confusing, but hope it makes sense.

 

[GWH]

God is love. But God's love is also MORAL in nature. For example, Love can do NO wrong. Furthermore, the very foundation to God's throne are justice and righteousness (Ps 89:14; 97:20). Since all humans have been imputed with Adam's sin (which legally necessitates the imputation of the Last Adam's righteousness before any soul can be saved), then that means all men come into this in a state of spiritual death and in real sense participated in Adam's sin.

Finally, God's desirative will should not be confused with his decretive will. We see this plainly right after the Fall. God very clearly decreed Eve's salvation, but there's no such decree for Adam.

P.S. It's very sporting and big of you to make a bet that you can never pay or collect upon. When we die we bring to heaven the very same thing we did when we came into this world with -- the skin on our backs.

There is no need to blame Adam for sin, because all have sinned and are without excuse (RM 3:23, 1:20), and there is no need to be concerned with what God decreed for A&E, because although He decreed that the wage for your sin is death (RM 6:23a), He also decreed the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (RM 6:23b), because He is rich in mercy (EPH 2:4).

In heaven we will be rich (EPH 3:8), so you will be able to pay off.

 

[Rufus]

I understood the "appeared" to mean appeared in the spiritual sense (hence the "all men"), not in a physical sense. Christ did appear physically to those you mentioned, but I don't believe that appearance necessarily resulted in salvation. In the spiritual sense, however, I believe that all (men) whom Christ appears to (spiritually), must be or become saved, because as the verse tells us, grace brings salvation.
I didn't do too well explaining it I know- kind of confusing, but hope it makes sense.

No...I understand what you're saying and you make a good point. But also Christ is often personified in various ways in scripture, e.g. the Kingdom. Scripture tells us that while Moses brought the Law, Christ brought Grace and Truth. And the bible also tells us that Jesus was full of grace and truth (Jn 1:14). And Jesus tells us that he came into the world to save it, not to condemn it (Jn 12:47).

The problem I have is with the term "appeared". Grace is not a material thing, save for what I just said above. And how does grace spiritually appear to all men?

Also, many were saved when they came into contact with Christ -- both Jews and Gentiles I might add. Of course, like you, I don't take "all men" in the distributive but in the limited sense. "All men" = Jews and Gentiles of the world, but not each and every Jew and Gentile.

 

[Rufus]

There is no need to blame Adam for sin, because all have sinned and are without excuse (RM 3:23, 1:20), and there is no need to be concerned with what God decreed for A&E, because although He decreed that the wage for your sin is death (RM 6:23a), He also decreed the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (RM 6:23b), because He is rich in mercy (EPH 2:4).

In heaven we will be rich (EPH 3:8), so you will be able to pay off.

You have a worldly view of heaven as well. You think "rich" = material wealth???

And, yes, Adam is the cause for the Fall of mankind and all the curses that are on this earth because of his sin. You might want to ponder Rom 5 and 1Cor 15 someday. If Adam hadn't sinned, none of us would have inherited Adam's sin nature and spiritual death.

Finally, maybe you should begin paying off with the correction scripture cite. Eph 3:8 doesn't say what you say it does.

 

[Genez]

If the grace of God brings salvation as the verses informs us, given that it does bring salvation, then all those to whom it appears must become saved given that it had appeared to them. But, since not everyone becomes saved, then the “all men” cannot mean every man, but only those chosen to salvation who therefore must become saved.

That's precisely where the Calvinist get's off the road.

No one can not get saved without grace controlling the flesh, to give the soul a reprise of being dominated by the depravity.
Grace forces down the influence of the flesh so that a soul can choose in a state free of the sin nature.

Grace does not guarantee a person will choose to believe.
Grace only makes it possible to choose free of the depravity of the flesh.

Romans 1:18-23 shows how God took those who were to become the worst king of reprobate, and made his soul (by grace) able to see the truth. Truth about God that could have saved him concerning knowing God is real.

God was drawing them and making the needed truth KNOWN to them.
They they chose to recoil and suppress the truth they received...
And? For their rejection?
God judged them!


The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (by grace!)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature
—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became
fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being
and birds and animals and reptiles." Romans 1:18-23

In the same kind of drawing of men, others have found God, and believed!

 

[rogerg]

And how does grace spiritually appear to all men?

Good points, Rufus. I understand "appeared" to mean that by grace, we become able to comprehend God's grace - the basis of salvation - otherwise not. Good discussion - and not meaning to beat it to death.

 

[GWH]

You have a worldly view of heaven as well. You think "rich" = material wealth???

And, yes, Adam is the cause for the Fall of mankind and all the curses that are on this earth because of his sin. You might want to ponder Rom 5 and 1Cor 15 someday. If Adam hadn't sinned, none of us would have inherited Adam's sin nature and spiritual death.

Finally, maybe you should begin paying off with the correction scripture cite. Eph 3:8 doesn't say what you say it does.

Rich means better than material wealth.

If Adam hadn't sinned, you and I would still have sinned, let's not kid ourselves.

I haven't lost that bet, so maybe you will need to pay off by saying what I actually said. (Feel free to quote me :^)

 

[rogerg]

That's precisely where the Calvinist get's off the road.

We can not get saved without grace controlling the flesh, to give the soul a reprise of being dominated, so that soul can choose free of the sin nature putting earplugs and blinders on.

Grace does not guarantee a person will choose to believe. It only makes it possible to choose free of the depravity of the flesh.

Romans 1:18-23 shows how God took what was to become the worst king of reprobate, and made his soul (by grace) able to see the truth that could have saved him concerning knowing God is real.

God was drawing them and making the needed truth KNOWN to them.
They they chose to recoil and suppress the truth they received...
And? For their rejection?
God judged them!


The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (by grace!)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature
—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became
fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being
and birds and animals and reptiles." Romans 1:18-23

In the same kind of drawing of men, others have found God, and believed!

Salvation is entirely a free gift from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ the Savior. Those whom God had chosen to salvation, contribute nothing but are only the recipients of it.

 

[Genez]

Salvation is entirely a free gift from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ the Savior. Those whom God had chosen to salvation, contribute nothing but are only the recipients of it.

You have learned how to repeat those words.

 

[rogerg]

You have learned how to repeat those words.

Yes, because they are the gospel and we're supposed to repeat it to those who don't understand it. But nevertheless, you are unable to comprehend them no matter how many times they are repeated.

 

[Genez]

Yes, because they are the gospel and we're supposed to repeat it to those who don't understand it. But nevertheless, you are unable to comprehend them no matter how many times they are repeated.

Salvation is entirely a free gift from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ the Savior. Those whom God had chosen to salvation, contribute nothing but are only the recipients of it.

You left out "justice."
The Justice of the Cross cleared the way for all men.
But, not all men will want to believe.

We were not chosen to salvation.
We were chosen for a specific salvation.
Chosen in Him, to be His Bride.

Out of all believers that God already knows will believe?
Only some, out of all, were chosen by God to be saved during the Church age.

Moses was not chosen to be the Bride of Christ.
Moses was predestined to to believe during the age of Israel.
He was one of the chosen Jews.. God's chosen people before the church age began.

We were predestined to live and believe during the Church age.

God does not force anyone to be saved.
Irresistible grace says the opposite.

 

[rogerg]

Salvation is entirely a free gift from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ the Savior. Those whom God had chosen to salvation, contribute nothing but are only the recipients of it.

You left out "justice."
The Justice of the Cross cleared the way for all men.
But, not all men will want to believe.

We were not chosen to salvation.
We were chosen for a specific salvation.
Chosen in Him, to be His Bride.

Out of all believers that God already knows will believe?
Only some, out of all, were chosen by God to be saved during the Church age.

Moses was not chosen to be the Bride of Christ.
Moses was predestined to to believe during the age of Israel.
He was one of the chosen Jews.. God's chosen people before the church age began.

We were predestined to live and believe during the Church age.

God does not force anyone to be saved.
Irresistible grace says the opposite.

[Eph 2:5, 8 KJV]
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: