Former pentecostal

[CS1]

Here's my take on "when that which is perfect", which CANNOT be Jesus since he isn't a "that". I previously posted this as part of a short study on spiritual gifts.

REPOST

The subject of spiritual gifts is difficult to understand, hence very controversial, and equally difficult to unravel.

First, look at the way Paul began the Corinthian letter starting at 1 Cor1:10 wherein he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Cor; and keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some future event. And note that the church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned of in Heb 6 as well.

You have to first ask yourself what is "that which is perfect"? It's not referring to Jesus or his return, Jesus is not a "that".

The answer can be found in Eph 4:13 wherein it states 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, that being the perfection of the body of Christ: this then addressing the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the gifts, parts of the body as equated to the body of a man, noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need such miraculous piece meal parts of the body. Also note, the interlinear says "should come" not "is come" which also supports the idea of the possible replacing of something permanent for the temporal nature of the gifts.

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" relates to the distinction between the OT writings when reading Moses, and coming to Christ via the NT and the comparison to the veil when reading Moses, and we now, and they then, being able to look into a glass (mirror) and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.

To piece it all together, you must consider the gifts and their need at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify and grow it, such as by tongues, being a sign to unbelievers, miracles, prophesy, etc.

I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Gal 3, and Eph 4. Look closely at the similarity of words and phraseology used and piece those similar words and phrases together to get an understanding of their meaning as relates to the subject.

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To bad you can provide the Scripture that says :

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" relates to the distinction between the OT writings when reading Moses, and coming to Christ via the NT


That is assumed. The text does not say that, nor was Paul teaching that in the text. The Context is Love. Also, Chapter 14 is a unity chapter along with Chapter 12. You are trying to elitze then text with three verses at the expense of three chapters.


Chapter 1 of 1corinthians

4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


FYI, the very opening text speaks of the coming of the Lord, which is also known as the "Day of our Lord."



chapter 2

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[DJT_47]

To bad you can provide the Scripture that says :

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" relates to the distinction between the OT writings when reading Moses, and coming to Christ via the NT


That is assumed. The text does not say that, nor was Paul teaching that in the text. The Context is Love. Also, Chapter 14 is a unity chapter along with Chapter 12. You are trying to elitze then text with three verses at the expense of three chapters.


Chapter 1 of 1corinthians

4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


FYI, the very opening text speaks of the coming of the Lord, which is also known as the "Day of our Lord."



chapter 2

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

So, he (Christ) came in their lifetime? Read it again. Your inference is an incorrect understanding of "the day of the Lord" as written about in and to the Corinthians. The letter, as stated, was written to them, in their time, regarding their issues, and was meant to likewise have pertainance to THEM.

 

[CS1]

So, he (Christ) came in their lifetime? Read it again. Your inference is an incorrect understanding of "the day of the Lord" as written about in and to the Corinthians. The letter, as stated, was written to them, in their time, regarding their issues, and was meant to likewise have pertainance to THEM.

Says who?
I did read. You read chapters 1 and 2 and then read chapters 12 through 14 as unit chapters. FYI, the original text was not in the added chapter and verse.

 

[DJT_47]

Says who?
I did read. You read chapters 1 and 2 and then read chapters 12 through 14 as unit chapters. FYI, the original text was not in the added chapter and verse.

What exactly is the point you're trying to make?

 

[CS1]

What exactly is the point you're trying to make?

The point I made is from the opening of Paul's letter to the Corthinian church. He addressed Spirit gifts as I have posted from chapter one and HIS coming. It was established as a normative in the text in Chapters 1, 2, 12, 13, 14 and 15

Chapter 1-15

• Gifts of the Holy Spirit
• Spiritual wisdom over worldly wisdom
• the coming of the Lord and the dead in Christ rising
• gift in the church setting and the roles of men and women in the church
• Love is the motivation for all we do.

 

[DJT_47]

The point I made is from the opening of Paul's letter to the Corthinian church. He addressed Spirit gifts as I have posted from chapter one and HIS coming. It was established as a normative in the text in Chapters 1, 2, 12, 13, 14 and 15

Chapter 1-15

• Gifts of the Holy Spirit
• Spiritual wisdom over worldly wisdom
• the coming of the Lord and the dead in Christ rising
• gift in the church setting and the roles of men and women in the church
• Love is the motivation for all we do.

And what about spiritual gifts?

7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[CS1]

And what about spiritual gifts?

7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

again 1cor 13:8-10 has nothing to do with the Canon of Scriptures. As so many Censessionists teach.

There is no Biblical context to that narrative. The Greeks don't support that, nor do the church fathers.

 

[DJT_47]

again 1cor 13:8-10 has nothing to do with the Canon of Scriptures. As so many Censessionists teach.

There is no Biblical context to that narrative. The Greeks don't support that, nor do the church fathers.

Doesn't matter who supports or doesn't support a scripture such as 1 Cor 13:8-10; it's God's word that says what it says and can't be ignored or erased by someone's disbelief of it. The scripture says all gifts will cease. When? When that which is perfect should come, and what is "that which is perfect"? Christ? Is Christ a "that"? The great day of the Lord? Is it a "that"? Or is it the perfect man, the body of Christ at each congregation such as that of Corinth whi h was laden with division and problems?

 

[GWH]

So I decided that cessationist are right. The Bible is " that which is perfect" for when gifts will cease. Now we know how to pray and live. I was a pentecostal for most of my life. But I find that if I ask in prayer the one giving tongues is an evil spirit. You've got to be careful. Not every spirit is of God. Try the spirits.

Amen, although it is God/GW that is perfect, not our interpretation, which is fallible. I find that praying for GW to be done on earth obviates the need for endless prayers for miracles, which should not be sought to prove our faith. If tongues meant speaking an earthly language one has never learned, that would be impressive (I have been trying to learn Spanish most of my life!), but the sort of things usually claimed--not at all.

 

[Cameron143]

That which is perfect is referring to maturity. It is also referencing the body of Christ. If this site is a representative cross section of the church, the gifts are definitely still in operation.

 

[GWH]

That which is perfect is referring to maturity. It is also referencing the body of Christ. If this site is a representative cross section of the church, the gifts are definitely still in operation.

In heaven, but not on earth, where the quest for perfection/God's kingdom is lifelong and never attained, even by the apostle Paul per PHP 3:12-15.

 

[Cameron143]

In heaven, but not on earth, where the quest for perfection/God's kingdom is lifelong and never attained, even by the apostle Paul per PHP 3:12-15.

The gifts are a help to the church to aid in the maturation of the Christian.

 

[GWH]

The gifts are a help to the church to aid in the maturation of the Christian.

Which becomes perfection only in heaven per PHP 3:12-15. I am surprised you would kick against that goad/truth!

 

[CS1]

Doesn't matter who supports or doesn't support a scripture such as 1 Cor 13:8-10; it's God's word that says what it says and can't be ignored or erased by someone's disbelief of it. The scripture says all gifts will cease. When? When that which is perfect should come, and what is "that which is perfect"? Christ? Is Christ a "that"? The great day of the Lord? Is it a "that"? Or is it the perfect man, the body of Christ at each congregation such as that of Corinth whi h was laden with division and problems?

No, the text doesn't say all gifts have ceased. That which is perfect is the plan of God's Kingdom on Earth. That Perfect Kingdom has not yet been revealed until the King returns. Then, That which is Perfect will be restored as it was in the beginning. Until then, we look through a window that darkens, and Faith Carries us through until that Day:

as 1cor chapter 15:5053 says


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[GWH]

No, the text doesn't say all gifts have ceased. That which is perfect is the plan of God's Kingdom on Earth. That Perfect Kingdom has not yet been revealed until the King returns. Then, That which is Perfect will be restored as it was in the beginning. Until then, we look through a window that darkens, and Faith Carries us through until that Day:

as 1cor chapter 15:5053 says


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Yes! I certainly hope that God has not cancelled what He has given/gifted me (or I might as well shut up! :^)

 

[CS1]

Yes! I certainly hope that God has not cancelled what He has given/gifted me (or I might as well shut up! :^)

hahahaha

 

[Cameron143]

Which becomes perfection only in heaven per PHP 3:12-15. I am surprised you would kick against that goad/truth!

I never mentioned anything about this truth. I merely stated that gifts were still in effect because the church hasn't reached maturation.
I'm surprised you didn't discern this.

 

[DJT_47]

That which is perfect is referring to maturity. It is also referencing the body of Christ. If this site is a representative cross section of the church, the gifts are definitely still in operation.

You're correct, partially. It is referring to the maturity of the body of Christ which when mature, the perfect man as it's biblical correlation, the gifts are no longer needed. However, the gifts were enabled by the laying on of the apostle's hands according to biblical accounts except for the day of Pentecost when the Holy Ghost fell on the 11 apostles, and as recorded in Acts 10 with Cornelius, a sign from God that the Gentiles too should be included in the body. So, with no one to pass on the gifts in conjunction with now having the written word of God and no longer needing the gifts, they have ceased pursuant to 1 Cor 13:8-10

 

[GWH]

I never mentioned anything about this truth. I merely stated that gifts were still in effect because the church hasn't reached maturation.
I'm surprised you didn't discern this.

Well, I am surprised that you don't remember saying "That which is perfect is referring to maturity", unless you have senioritis like me. Earthly maturation is not perfection, but I am glad you think my gifts are still in effect. Whew!

 

[Cameron143]

You're correct, partially. It is referring to the maturity of the body of Christ which when mature, the perfect man as it's biblical correlation, the gifts are no longer needed. However, the gifts were enabled by the laying on of the apostle's hands according to biblical accounts except for the day of Pentecost when the Holy Ghost fell on the 11 apostles, and as recorded in Acts 10 with Cornelius, a sign from God that the Gentiles too should be included in the body. So, with no one to pass on the gifts in conjunction with now having the written word of God and no longer needing the gifts, they have ceased pursuant to 1 Cor 13:8-10

The gifts were the result of the Holy Spirit, always have been. 1 Corinthians 12:11 teaches that He imparts the gifts as He sees fit. That He employed the laying on of hands at times does not limit Him to only doing so.