Understanding God’s election
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Indeed we often explain before we learn
“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?
But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
Genesis 4:6-7
seems all cain needed to do was repent and do what is right but instead he killed his brother in the next verse and sin overcame him rather than he overcoming sin
“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?
But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
Genesis 4:6-7
seems all cain needed to do was repent and do what is right but instead he killed his brother in the next verse and sin overcame him rather than he overcoming sin
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yeah …..maybe god was just talking and offering a false choice cain had no choice but to kill his brother lol God was just rambling nonsense apparently
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
But then of course “ lord we can’t choose there’s no choice we’re evil and wicked hopelessly we can’t control what we do ….ect ect we aren’t accountable for what we do.
It’s strange that God blames sinners for thier own actions and doesn’t just tell us that’s how he made us and we have no choice instead he’s always offering a choice but if we don’t have a choice it could be that we’re rejecting the choice he’s offering us constantly like he did cain
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
But then of course “ lord we can’t choose there’s no choice we’re evil and wicked hopelessly we can’t control what we do ….ect ect we aren’t accountable for what we do.
It’s strange that God blames sinners for thier own actions and doesn’t just tell us that’s how he made us and we have no choice instead he’s always offering a choice but if we don’t have a choice it could be that we’re rejecting the choice he’s offering us constantly like he did cain
And when one sincerely comes to see the truth you highlighted in your second paragraph, then they cry out to the Lord to save their souls. They realize they need to be rescued. I certainly did, as have many other brothers and sisters I've known over the years. When the will is in bondage to the sin nature, it's only free to choose according to that nature. What in the world do you think Jesus and God's truth sets us free FROM!?
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the truth if we choose to keep his word you mean ?
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
Again if we do what he said there , we’ll be set free from what was caused by sin well after cain.
If we choose to become a disciple and follow the lord we’ll come to know the truth and be set free from serving sin because we’ll be serving God ….
But your talking about cain God told cain “ if you do what’s right , you will be accepted if you don’t do what’s right sin is at the door desiring to have you you must master it
It’s an option given to cain . Again here’s the quote
“If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right,
( notice he isn’t telling cain sin is your master you have no choice ?)
sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, ( not it’s your slave master you have no choice )
but you must rule over it.””
Genesis 4:7 NIV
I said “ it seems like cain was offered a choice and all he had to do was choose what God told him would make him acceptable instead of chi posing what God told him that would lead to sin having him …..
not sure how he had no choice but to kill his brother but seems like he should have done what God told him that would make him acceptable like we all should keeping the word of Jesus and knowing the truth ….
Gotta choose the lords way and we can cain could have also just like any sinner now can choose to follow jesus but often we don’t
You’ve pulled out a quote from Jerusalems judgement ? Let’s examine what’s being said
“then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am going to fill with drunkenness all who live in this land, including the kings who sit on David’s throne, the priests, the prophets and all those living in Jerusalem. I will smash them one against the other, parents and children alike, declares the Lord.
I will allow no pity or mercy or compassion to keep me from destroying them.’ ”
Hear and pay attention, do not be arrogant, for the Lord has spoken.
Give glory to the Lord your God before he brings the darkness, before your feet stumble on the darkening hills. You hope for light, but he will turn it to utter darkness and change it to deep gloom. If you do not listen, ( that’s all cain had to do as well and us listen to the lord )
I will weep in secret because of your pride; my eyes will weep bitterly, overflowing with tears, because the Lord’s flock will be taken captive. Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil. “I will scatter you like chaff driven by the desert wind. This is your lot, the portion I have decreed for you,” declares the Lord, “because you have forgotten me and trusted in false gods.”
Jeremiah 13:13-17, 23-25 NIV
Jerusalem and all israel was chosen elect by God he warned then in the law to choose life and not death
He’s saying that to the people who agreed to this covenant them broke it and reaped the curses written in it
“See, I set before you today life and prosperity, (1)
death and destruction. (2)
For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses.
Now choose life, so that you and your children may live”
Deuteronomy 30:15-19
God doesn’t change he’s always set good and evil before us and said believe me and live. Anyone can choose Jesus since the gospel sinners are the ones who have to choose him actually gotta choose Jesus first and then later reap the promises he made in our new covenant, the gospel .
man can choose but after mankind serves sin over and over it becomes harder and harder to choose good some never will because they love the pleasures of sin more than God in truth
“then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am going to fill with drunkenness all who live in this land, including the kings who sit on David’s throne, the priests, the prophets and all those living in Jerusalem. I will smash them one against the other, parents and children alike, declares the Lord.
I will allow no pity or mercy or compassion to keep me from destroying them.’ ”
Hear and pay attention, do not be arrogant, for the Lord has spoken.
Give glory to the Lord your God before he brings the darkness, before your feet stumble on the darkening hills. You hope for light, but he will turn it to utter darkness and change it to deep gloom. If you do not listen, ( that’s all cain had to do as well and us listen to the lord )
I will weep in secret because of your pride; my eyes will weep bitterly, overflowing with tears, because the Lord’s flock will be taken captive. Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil. “I will scatter you like chaff driven by the desert wind. This is your lot, the portion I have decreed for you,” declares the Lord, “because you have forgotten me and trusted in false gods.”
Jeremiah 13:13-17, 23-25 NIV
Jerusalem and all israel was chosen elect by God he warned then in the law to choose life and not death
He’s saying that to the people who agreed to this covenant them broke it and reaped the curses written in it
“See, I set before you today life and prosperity, (1)
death and destruction. (2)
For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses.
Now choose life, so that you and your children may live”
Deuteronomy 30:15-19
God doesn’t change he’s always set good and evil before us and said believe me and live. Anyone can choose Jesus since the gospel sinners are the ones who have to choose him actually gotta choose Jesus first and then later reap the promises he made in our new covenant, the gospel .
man can choose but after mankind serves sin over and over it becomes harder and harder to choose good some never will because they love the pleasures of sin more than God in truth
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“Cain ignored God's warnings.”
right cain did something wrong and reaped the curse he was warned if he chose wrong.
“And all sinners are at fault for their sins because they know right from wrong, even though they cannot do what is right”
we’re sort of conflating what I said about cain with all sinners later. What I had said was cain was given a choice and chose wrong , that all he had to do was choose what god said would make him acceptable.
It was the same for Noah job Daniel they chose right and the word tells us they could have delivered thier own souls with thier righteousness
We can choose what keeps us from the “ ability “ is when we refuse to believe we can choose we convince ourselves “ I have no choice I’m incapable “ It’s only a mind deception not a lack of ability it’s a lie man believed
God created us and gave us dominion on earth set us above all life on earth gave us freedom and choice and we choose wrong . Christ takes away the knowledge of good and evil that conflicts in us and replaces it with truth if we don’t reject it ….which releases sins a grasp on us
all we have to do is what cain should have done listen to what the lord actually says in the gospel to believers that’s the choice we need to make and cain had the same one the word was in n the beginning also the same Gods word has always been the right choice even in cains time it would have set him free
right cain did something wrong and reaped the curse he was warned if he chose wrong.
“And all sinners are at fault for their sins because they know right from wrong, even though they cannot do what is right”
we’re sort of conflating what I said about cain with all sinners later. What I had said was cain was given a choice and chose wrong , that all he had to do was choose what god said would make him acceptable.
It was the same for Noah job Daniel they chose right and the word tells us they could have delivered thier own souls with thier righteousness
We can choose what keeps us from the “ ability “ is when we refuse to believe we can choose we convince ourselves “ I have no choice I’m incapable “ It’s only a mind deception not a lack of ability it’s a lie man believed
God created us and gave us dominion on earth set us above all life on earth gave us freedom and choice and we choose wrong . Christ takes away the knowledge of good and evil that conflicts in us and replaces it with truth if we don’t reject it ….which releases sins a grasp on us
all we have to do is what cain should have done listen to what the lord actually says in the gospel to believers that’s the choice we need to make and cain had the same one the word was in n the beginning also the same Gods word has always been the right choice even in cains time it would have set him free
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“Because his own works were evil,”
“This is how we know who the children of God are and
who the children of the devil are:
Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.”
1 John 3:10 NIV
if you have a tiger his nature is to kill and eat , if he kills and eats …..you don’t punish him for what his nature is do you ?
If cain was just created wicked why did he get punished for what wasn’t his fault but just how he was created ?
When we reject Christ and the gospel that’s the thing that makes us not his child
when cain rejected his word and killed able that’s what made him wicked he had a choice chose wrong resulting in punishment and lost inheritance
“This is how we know who the children of God are and
who the children of the devil are:
Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.”
1 John 3:10 NIV
if you have a tiger his nature is to kill and eat , if he kills and eats …..you don’t punish him for what his nature is do you ?
If cain was just created wicked why did he get punished for what wasn’t his fault but just how he was created ?
When we reject Christ and the gospel that’s the thing that makes us not his child
when cain rejected his word and killed able that’s what made him wicked he had a choice chose wrong resulting in punishment and lost inheritance
“Warnings in scripture are a gracious way God gives people wake up calls. “
So if they listen to Gods word they’ll be woken up right ? That’s all I’m saying cain had an option , I’m. Ot arguing cain was good or anything I’m saying God gives all of us a choice some of us like cain will hear the option and choose the wrong thing that he warned of others will choose to believe what he said.
the sinful nature isn’t pure evil it’s the result of man taking in the knowledge of both good and evil we have both in us that’s why even non believers do good as well as evil . Humans do good and evil because or nature was corrupted by good and evil knowledge in Eden
The idea is not that cain chose the right thing but he factually was presented with a choice and results of each choice then he made a choice. God offered to accept cain if he did good why would he do this if cain was already pre ordained as a child of Satan and couldn’t choose tbat ?
if you do this , this will result ,….but if you do this other thing , this other thing will result “
So if they listen to Gods word they’ll be woken up right ? That’s all I’m saying cain had an option , I’m. Ot arguing cain was good or anything I’m saying God gives all of us a choice some of us like cain will hear the option and choose the wrong thing that he warned of others will choose to believe what he said.
the sinful nature isn’t pure evil it’s the result of man taking in the knowledge of both good and evil we have both in us that’s why even non believers do good as well as evil . Humans do good and evil because or nature was corrupted by good and evil knowledge in Eden
The idea is not that cain chose the right thing but he factually was presented with a choice and results of each choice then he made a choice. God offered to accept cain if he did good why would he do this if cain was already pre ordained as a child of Satan and couldn’t choose tbat ?
if you do this , this will result ,….but if you do this other thing , this other thing will result “
“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
Galatians 6:7-9 NIV
We choose every day the things we do some are obligations other things just choices sure temptation is always right before us trying to pull us away , but temptation is offering also a bad choice and we should stick with the good choice when it comes
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
Galatians 6:7-9 NIV
We choose every day the things we do some are obligations other things just choices sure temptation is always right before us trying to pull us away , but temptation is offering also a bad choice and we should stick with the good choice when it comes
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So what I pulled out a quote from Jerusalem's judgment? Why are you incredulous? Are you suggesting that the Gentle world that hates God is more righteous than the apostate Jews, and that Jer 13:23 doesn't apply to Gentiles or to us today? If so, consider Psalm 2 for starters. Of for that matter, consider all of God's judgments in the OT against the GENTILE nations! You could start your research with the prophet Jeremiah who God called the "prophet to the nations".
Are you so naive as to think that the God-hating sinners of the world don't practice sin 24/7? Or do you think the world is just filled with part time sinners? Do not unbelievers practice sin 24/7? Or do men only start to do evil in their advanced age? But how can this be since the unregenerate never love God, nor do they have faith in Him? So, there's two sins right there that they diligently practice around the clock! And since the sons of men neither love God or trust him this can only mean that their hearts are filled with only evil! Consider these passages and not carefully the reference to children:
Gen 8:21
21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
NIV
And,
Eccl 9:3b
...Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
ESV
Therefore, evil is fully entrenched in the hearts of the unregenerate -- at a very early age to boot! This is why Jeremiah told the Jews they're incapable of doing good because they have become so accustomed to doing evil. They can no more change their ways than the Ethiopian can change the color of his skin or the leopard can change its spots. And this prophet wasn't the only who taught this truth!
Eccl 8:8
8 No man has power over the wind to contain it;
so no one has power over the day of his death.
As no one is discharged in time of war,
so wickedness will not release those who practice it.
NIV
So...when God told Cain that he must "master" sin, he was reminding him of his moral responsibility toward his Creator. Do you think God would lower his moral standards to accommodate sinners? Or do you think that Cain lived under the New Covenant of Grace in which it said:
Rom 6:14
14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace .
NIV
If Cain could have obeyed God, then what precisely is the point to the unconditional, unilateral New Covenant? If sin could have been conquered or mastered in this life in the OT, then what is the purpose to the New Covenant? Isn't one of its purposes to free God's elect from the power of sin?
Or did God lower his standards when he justifies sinners? Or did not God give the Law to the Israelites with specific and explicit commands that they had to obey everything in the law at all times? Are you going to tell us that perfect obedience to the law was well within Israel's grasp -- if they had only exercised their "free" will -- a will that is as corrupt as the other faculties in the human heart? But what did Joshua tell the Israelites?
Josh 24:19
19 Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.
NIV
But why would they not be able to serve the Lord? Well...in addition to the above passages, we have this one as well that teaches there is absolutely no spiritual soundness in men's souls:
Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV
(See also Rom 7:18.)
And when did this rebellion begin? The same prophet tells us:
Isa 48:8b
8 ...Well do I know how treacherous you are;
you were called a rebel from birth .
NIV
So, you see: the sons of men are exceedingly skillful practitioners of evil...from their youth! Therefore, sin will not loosen its grip on the powerless dead by any efforts by them. Only God can rescue powerless sinners from the jaws of death and the sting of sin and its power.
Are you so naive as to think that the God-hating sinners of the world don't practice sin 24/7? Or do you think the world is just filled with part time sinners? Do not unbelievers practice sin 24/7? Or do men only start to do evil in their advanced age? But how can this be since the unregenerate never love God, nor do they have faith in Him? So, there's two sins right there that they diligently practice around the clock! And since the sons of men neither love God or trust him this can only mean that their hearts are filled with only evil! Consider these passages and not carefully the reference to children:
Gen 8:21
21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
NIV
And,
Eccl 9:3b
...Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
ESV
Therefore, evil is fully entrenched in the hearts of the unregenerate -- at a very early age to boot! This is why Jeremiah told the Jews they're incapable of doing good because they have become so accustomed to doing evil. They can no more change their ways than the Ethiopian can change the color of his skin or the leopard can change its spots. And this prophet wasn't the only who taught this truth!
Eccl 8:8
8 No man has power over the wind to contain it;
so no one has power over the day of his death.
As no one is discharged in time of war,
so wickedness will not release those who practice it.
NIV
So...when God told Cain that he must "master" sin, he was reminding him of his moral responsibility toward his Creator. Do you think God would lower his moral standards to accommodate sinners? Or do you think that Cain lived under the New Covenant of Grace in which it said:
Rom 6:14
14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace .
NIV
If Cain could have obeyed God, then what precisely is the point to the unconditional, unilateral New Covenant? If sin could have been conquered or mastered in this life in the OT, then what is the purpose to the New Covenant? Isn't one of its purposes to free God's elect from the power of sin?
Or did God lower his standards when he justifies sinners? Or did not God give the Law to the Israelites with specific and explicit commands that they had to obey everything in the law at all times? Are you going to tell us that perfect obedience to the law was well within Israel's grasp -- if they had only exercised their "free" will -- a will that is as corrupt as the other faculties in the human heart? But what did Joshua tell the Israelites?
Josh 24:19
19 Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.
NIV
But why would they not be able to serve the Lord? Well...in addition to the above passages, we have this one as well that teaches there is absolutely no spiritual soundness in men's souls:
Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV
(See also Rom 7:18.)
And when did this rebellion begin? The same prophet tells us:
Isa 48:8b
8 ...Well do I know how treacherous you are;
you were called a rebel from birth .
NIV
So, you see: the sons of men are exceedingly skillful practitioners of evil...from their youth! Therefore, sin will not loosen its grip on the powerless dead by any efforts by them. Only God can rescue powerless sinners from the jaws of death and the sting of sin and its power.