Understanding God’s election

[rogerg]

A particular false belief of Calvinists seems to be that a person is first filled with the Holy Spirit in order to cause them to believe the gospel in faith. That is not even close to scripture.

[2Th 2:13 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[Gal 5:18, 22 KJV]
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. ...
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[Genez]

Honestly, I understand more and more why Paul said he only wanted to know Christ in people.

For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I Cor. 2:2

and the amplified says it like this:

for I made the decision to know nothing [that is, to forego philosophical or theological discussions regarding inconsequential things and opinions while] among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified [and the meaning of His redemptive, substitutionary death and His resurrection].

It becomes obvious that some people here wish only to press their beliefs on others and forego all actual discussion. I wonder if some of those same people have been turned aside from their church for doing that or perhaps do not attend church at all and therefore avoid all correction or questioning. A particular false belief of Calvinists seems to be that a person is first filled with the Holy Spirit in order to cause them to believe the gospel in faith. That is not even close to scripture. That is a perversion of how we are actually infilled by the Holy Spirit. Conversion to Christ must always come first. God does not throw His Spirit at people or otherwise violate our wills.

Of course the violation of the will is one of the main teachings of Calvinism.

Grace ... as Paul tells it applied to himself .... is POWER to be something we can not be in our weak fallen state.

Saved by grace?

God's grace power must take our flesh and SILENCE it's effects over dominating our soul, so that our soul can decide for the Gospel!
Without grace? The flesh would dominate over the soul and make impossible for our soul to believe if it wanted to.
That is why we need to be saved by Grace!

No regeneration first! God's grace power provides the Gospel hearer a temporary God-imposed state of freedom to choose from their soul! Its all about volition in that case!

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. 2 Corinthians 12:9​

'Power' is not unmerited favor!

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. ​

No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me." 1 Cor 15:10​

Grace is God's enabling power granted by God, to enable believers to become what merits His favor!

Calvinists took a brave shot in the dark, and landed in a ditch.
The light that shines with what Paul stated should allow themselves to crawl out, and dust themselves off....
To begin once more walking by faith in truth in the grace power from God to recover.


Grace and peace ...........

 

[GWH]

I have no idea what this means?

It means that on this thread we don't see people living the life or walking the walk but only writing what is right, hopefully.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It means that on this thread we don't see people living the life or walking the walk but only writing what is right, hopefully.

I can't speak for the whole thread because I haven't read it it, but do you not consider it love to correct error in something so important as the word of God?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

God's grace power must take our flesh and SILENCE it's effects over dominating our soul, so that our soul can decide for the Gospel!
Without grace? The flesh would dominate over the soul and make impossible for our soul to believe if it wanted to.
That is why we need to be saved by Grace!

Is this another way of saying that we by the spirit of God witnessing with the word of God put to death the deeds of the flesh, or are you simply talking about justification?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Grace is God's enabling power granted by God, to enable believers to become what merits His favor!

I believe you have grace confused with the holy spirit

 

[ocean]

[2Th 2:13 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[Gal 5:18, 22 KJV]
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. ...
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

to the exclusion of all scripture? no need to harmonize scripture? just ignore God telling us to choose from one end of the Bible to the other?

so what does sanctification of the spirit mean to you in conjunction of believing the truth?

I agree we are not under the law.

Dropping scripture into the exchange should accompany the reason for the particular verses chosen? yes, no? doesn't matter?

 

[Genez]

Is this another way of saying that we by the spirit of God witnessing with the word of God put to death the deeds of the flesh, or are you simply talking about justification?

You just leaped so fast I can not throw you a parachute...

Where'd you go?

Sorry... Try rewording what you said and point to why you asked.

 

[Genez]

Is this another way of saying that we by the spirit of God witnessing with the word of God put to death the deeds of the flesh, or are you simply talking about justification?

That was about the one who was being witnessed to.
Not, about the one witnessing.

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly, so on what basis would a God who loved them judge them?

God is good to all men. Mt,5:45...45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
rom.3:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? love everyone

God does not love everyone savingly. His saving love is only for those elected and drawn by the Father to the Son.

We know this because Paul explains it for us;
Rom5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because
the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

[GWH]

I can't speak for the whole thread because I haven't read it it, but do you not consider it love to correct error in something so important as the word of God?

Yes I do, and my minor point was loving, and I would also consider it loving to thank someone for pointing out error even regarding minor and non-scriptural matters.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes

grace of God gives every man woman and child the ability to understand the curse, and the promise

man has to chose to say yes Lord. i want your salvation. or continue to live in sin.

in John 3 Jesus mentioned the serpent and moses.

God put the serpent in moses hands so anyone who looked would be saved, he did not force people to look, and he did nto keep or prevent people from looking so they could get saved.

In the same token is grace, the cross. God will not force you to look, and he will not prevent you from looking

But mark his word he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already
\the difference between the 2 is faith vs unbelief.

not who god chose,

God chose the ones who would freely recieve hI’m. And he predestined those people to be conformed to hs image.

fatalism is a lie.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[rogerg]

to the exclusion of all scripture? no need to harmonize scripture? just ignore God telling us to choose from one end of the Bible to the other?

so what does sanctification of the spirit mean to you in conjunction of believing the truth?

I agree we are not under the law.

Dropping scripture into the exchange should accompany the reason for the particular verses chosen? yes, no? doesn't matter?

The idea was to illuminate the foundational scriptures upon which other scriptures are dependent and have been built. The verses
built upon the foundation, cannot contradict the foundation or their interpretation is incorrect - in this case, the foundation is that it is solely by God, not by us.

The meaning of the verses I posted is that God uses the Holy Spirit to save those whom He had chosen to salvation "from the beginning", by whom He imparts unto them a belief in the truth. As conformation of that, we are told faith is given to those chosen by God through the Holy Spirit via His fruit upon His indwelling of them along with giving spiritual life (spiritual rebirth). Until then, they are unsaved and without true faith; the point being that one must first be given the Holy Spirit in order to become saved, and by Him, given faith, after which, upon their hearing of the gospel, they will believe.


He doesn't tell us to choose from one end of the Bible to the other; He tells us that it is He who chooses us, not that we choose Him.
For those He had chosen unto salvation, no choice exists for them but that they must become saved - the covenant is strictly unilateral and is from God to man, not the reverse.

In the below verse we are informed of that. The "I will" and "will I" tells us that it is God alone who will carry it out, not us.
Observe the "he hath perfected". It means that it has already been completed.

[Heb 10:14 KJV]
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 

[Genez]

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Why was he "judged already?"
Because at some point he completely refused the drawing of God!

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,


Having done so, he now stands condemned, even though God allows him to remain alive for a season.

 

[decipher]

One more time

Eph 2: 8
8 For by grace you have been saved

Prety self explanitory. I have been saved solely by the grace of God

through faith,

But God will not force it on me. It is recieved through faith.


and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Again, prety self explanatory. The grace that saved me through me trusting him, is not of myself. and is not of works..

So why do you keep insisting that me recieving his grace gift negates grace? It is how we recieve grace.

the only other option is to reject it.

How do you reject grace?

1. Trying to work for it (not of works)
2. Outright rejection of it completely (Love your sin)
3. Denying you even need it (like the jews who denied Christ who came to save them)
and I am sure I can come up0 with other ways.

Hi Everlasting- Grace. You've posted a lot of truths in this post. "no flesh shall boast in heaven" means that no one will say, " I made the right choice, or I chose to believe the right things about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God does it all, and anyone who chooses to believe that they had any part in it, is not giving God full credit.
Grace starts when God the Father baptizes the individual with a state of being called "repentance". You can't refuse it because you're already in that state as soon as He grants it. It is this state of being that has individuals turning to God for forgiveness. Through preaching, the individual learns about the forgiveness of sins through Jesus, and get baptized in the name of the Son when he believes. The Son (not humans) then baptizes with the Holy Spirit (not water) in order to perfect the individual by filling him with divine love for God first and all others as he loves himself. When your motivation for every thought and action is this love, you will be obeying the Spirit of the Law, upon which the Letter of the Law is based. Faith, as described in Romans 3: 21-30 is believing in Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Rom 3: 28 Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. In 1 Cor 13: 1-13 it clearly states that it doesn't matter what you think and do, if you don't have love in your heart.
Eph 1:4 According as He (the Father) hath chosen us in Him (the Son) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him, in love

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Grace starts when God the Father baptizes the individual with a state of being called "repentance". You can't refuse it because you're already in that state as soon as He grants it.

Is this the gospel of the kingdom of the sock puppets?

 

[GWH]

God is good to all men. Mt,5:45...45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
rom.3:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? love everyone

God does not love everyone savingly. His saving love is only for those elected and drawn by the Father to the Son.

We know this because Paul explains it for us;
Rom5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because
the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Icon,

God is indeed good to all men, but His not loving everyone "savingly" is NOT good to some men.

God's saving love is offered to all men, but some men choose to reject Him. Those who accept His grace/drawing/calling via non-meritorious faith are elected or receive the Holy Spirit.

Yes, we know this because Paul explains it for us in 1TM 2:3-4 & EPH 2:8-10, etc.

LIC

 

[GWH]

BTW y'all, how does one know that "we" elect includes "you"?

 

[Cameron143]

BTW y'all, how does one know that "we" elect includes "you"?

God's sealing.

How did Peter know Cornelius and his family should be baptized?

 

[GWH]

God's sealing.

How did Peter know Cornelius and his family should be baptized?

How does one know that we elect or sealed includes you?