Convince me there is non-alcoholic wine in the Bible/communion

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Hakawaka

Hakawaka

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#1
Jul 1, 2021
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#1
Hello there friends, brothers and sisters in Christ

I am a tee-totaler as they say, I never drink anything, but I am of the opinion that the biblical communion is alcoholic wine. But because I am a tee-totaler, I would like it to be otherwise, I have heard people say its "New wine" which is non-alcoholic, but is there any evidence for this? Convince me of this guys, I ask, please convince me.

I just see alcohol as a massive evil in this world. I also think that so called "moderate" use can turn into excess very fast, and I dont think ssomeone who has never tasted alcohol turns into an alcoholic, meanwhile a moderate user can easily become one.

Does the greek/hebrew have some distinctions I dont know about?
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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#2
The wine served at Christ's last supper was probably alcoholic. However, we have strained a gnat and swallowed a camel in our communion practices. People overlook the fact that the Lord's supper, as practiced in the New Testament congregations, involved a communal meal. 1 Corinthians 11:21-34 makes this pretty clear. Jude calls it a "love feast." Wine would've been a typical drink served at such meals. But the drink used isn't as critical as spirit of love and unity involved in the sharing of the meal. Paul even goes so far as to say that many had become weak, sick and even died because they were taking part in the supper without consideration of the entire body.

So it's my opinion we've gotten lost in the weeds and are concerned over so many trivial matters we've lost sight of the bigger picture. In summary, yes, non-alcoholic wine or juices are fine.
 
C

ChristRoseFromTheDead

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IMO It really doesn't matter what's in the cup. Jesus said as often as you drink this cup, not as often as you drink this wine. The ancients used wine because they didn't have refrigeration. It's all symbolic anyway, a way to remember and express our faith in the covenant. The bread and cup were just a normal part of covenant meals in which the two covenant parties fellowshiped. For example:

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. Exodus 24:8-11
 
G

GWH

Groovy
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Oct 19, 2024
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#4
Hakawaka said:
Hello there friends, brothers and sisters in Christ

I am a tee-totaler as they say, I never drink anything, but I am of the opinion that the biblical communion is alcoholic wine. But because I am a tee-totaler, I would like it to be otherwise, I have heard people say its "New wine" which is non-alcoholic, but is there any evidence for this? Convince me of this guys, I ask, please convince me.

I just see alcohol as a massive evil in this world. I also think that so called "moderate" use can turn into excess very fast, and I dont think ssomeone who has never tasted alcohol turns into an alcoholic, meanwhile a moderate user can easily become one.

Does the greek/hebrew have some distinctions I dont know about?
Click to expand...
No, but the Bible DOES agree that drug abuse is sinful, so it is wise to keep one's tippling down to the thimbles served in communion services. Not sure about marijuana's supposed medicinal applications.
 
Tall_Timbers

Tall_Timbers

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Mar 31, 2023
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#5
Hakawaka said:
I am a tee-totaler as they say, I never drink anything, but I am of the opinion that the biblical communion is alcoholic wine.
Click to expand...
I lived in the jungles of Colombia S.A. for a couple of years. In the region where I lived they made a beverage from sugar cane called guarapo. When it was freshly made it was nothing more than sugar juice. It would fairly quickly ferment though, and by day 2 it was an alcoholic beverage. It probably tasted best around day 3 and day 4 when it had a moderate amount of fermentation. By the end of the week it had too high an alcohol content and didn't taste as good, at least not to me.

I would venture to guess that the wine was most appreciated in the early days when it had some fermentation, but not too much.

Hakawaka said:
I also think that so called "moderate" use can turn into excess very fast,
Click to expand...
It seems some people are prone to alcoholism and other addictions where others don't really have a problem in that area. A person can consume moderate amounts of alcohol their entire life and never become an alcoholic. Others become alcoholics rather quickly, unfortunately.
 
K

Karlon

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Mar 8, 2023
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#6
Hakawaka said:
Hello there friends, brothers and sisters in Christ

I am a tee-totaler as they say, I never drink anything, but I am of the opinion that the biblical communion is alcoholic wine. But because I am a tee-totaler, I would like it to be otherwise, I have heard people say its "New wine" which is non-alcoholic, but is there any evidence for this? Convince me of this guys, I ask, please convince me.

I just see alcohol as a massive evil in this world. I also think that so called "moderate" use can turn into excess very fast, and I dont think ssomeone who has never tasted alcohol turns into an alcoholic, meanwhile a moderate user can easily become one.

Does the greek/hebrew have some distinctions I dont know about?
Click to expand...
i heard a pastor teach that wine in Biblical days was unfermented grape juice. but Proverbs 23; 31 & 32 & Isaiah 5:11 talk about not drinking too much wine as in alcoholic wine. Ephesians 5:18,19 & 20 speak of, "& be not drunk with wine wherein is excess...." to be not drunk with wine means you are drinking it in the 1st place! strong drink is mentioned in Isaiah. i'm not going to try to convince. a massive evil? wow! that's very extreme. i say, it depends on how you handle it spiritually, mentally & physically. i used to drink huge amounts of alcohol, 30 to 40 drinks in 3 to 4 hours & it did nothing in the way of me losing my accountability, responsibilty or reliability. i never staggered or stammered. my dad & brothers are the same way. i quit that over 20 years ago. i never felt like i had to have a drink, it's just something that was fun. now, in the summer time, i have a few beers here & there. & in Saratoga, my wife & like the "clouds in my coffee" at Morrissey's.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Karlon said:
i heard a pastor teach that wine in Biblical days was unfermented grape juice.
Click to expand...
but is it true?

there are many pastors, and many say things which simply aren't so, for various reasons.

some have been taught false things and just repeat them without investigation.
some have done a little investigation but not enough to understand their conclusion is wrong.
some know they are wrong but teach falsehoods anyway because they believe their aims justify their means.
and some know they are wrong and simply don't care, because they have taken roles as pastors for all the wrong reasons.


on this topic i believe the answer is clear - it has been beat to death hundreds of times in this forum with the same conclusions every time: wine has alcohol in it, and the Bible doesn't teach complete abstinence; it teaches moderation and wisdom.
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

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#9
Jan 16, 2021
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#9
Hakawaka said:
Hello there friends, brothers and sisters in Christ

I am a tee-totaler as they say, I never drink anything, but I am of the opinion that the biblical communion is alcoholic wine. But because I am a tee-totaler, I would like it to be otherwise, I have heard people say its "New wine" which is non-alcoholic, but is there any evidence for this? Convince me of this guys, I ask, please convince me.

I just see alcohol as a massive evil in this world. I also think that so called "moderate" use can turn into excess very fast, and I dont think ssomeone who has never tasted alcohol turns into an alcoholic, meanwhile a moderate user can easily become one.

Does the greek/hebrew have some distinctions I dont know about?
Click to expand...
There are four different types of alcoholic beverages listed in scriptures. Including wine, jam, fortified wines (equivalent to liquor for aperitif or otherwise) and beer.

They also used sweet wine vinegar for mixing with water for something akin to lemonade.

Fermentation was a much more natural process than today's....but it still happened EVERY time.

You don't need the alcoholic beverages today because of the water purification and sanitation we enjoy they didn't.
 
K

Karlon

Well-known member
#10
Mar 8, 2023
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#10
posthuman said:
but is it true?

there are many pastors, and many say things which simply aren't so, for various reasons.

some have been taught false things and just repeat them without investigation.
some have done a little investigation but not enough to understand their conclusion is wrong.
some know they are wrong but teach falsehoods anyway because they believe their aims justify their means.
and some know they are wrong and simply don't care, because they have taken roles as pastors for all the wrong reasons.


on this topic i believe the answer is clear - it has been beat to death hundreds of times in this forum with the same conclusions every time: wine has alcohol in it, and the Bible doesn't teach complete abstinence; it teaches moderation and wisdom.
Click to expand...
no, it wasn't unfermented grape juice, it was real wine.
 
NightTwister

NightTwister

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Jul 5, 2023
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#12
JohnDB said:
There are four different types of alcoholic beverages listed in scriptures. Including wine, jam, fortified wines (equivalent to liquor for aperitif or otherwise) and beer.

They also used sweet wine vinegar for mixing with water for something akin to lemonade.

Fermentation was a much more natural process than today's....but it still happened EVERY time.

You don't need the alcoholic beverages today because of the water purification and sanitation we enjoy they didn't.
Click to expand...
Psalm 104:15: "You give us wine that makes happy hearts and olive oil that makes our faces shine.

Purified water doesn't do that.
 
Hakawaka

Hakawaka

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#13
Jul 1, 2021
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posthuman said:
on this topic i believe the answer is clear - it has been beat to death hundreds of times in this forum with the same conclusions every time: wine has alcohol in it, and the Bible doesn't teach complete abstinence; it teaches moderation and wisdom.
Click to expand...
This is my view as well, for now.
 
Hakawaka

Hakawaka

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#14
J

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#15
Hakawaka said:
Hello there friends, brothers and sisters in Christ

I am a tee-totaler as they say, I never drink anything, but I am of the opinion that the biblical communion is alcoholic wine. But because I am a tee-totaler, I would like it to be otherwise, I have heard people say its "New wine" which is non-alcoholic, but is there any evidence for this? Convince me of this guys, I ask, please convince me.

I just see alcohol as a massive evil in this world. I also think that so called "moderate" use can turn into excess very fast, and I dont think ssomeone who has never tasted alcohol turns into an alcoholic, meanwhile a moderate user can easily become one.

Does the greek/hebrew have some distinctions I dont know about?
Click to expand...
Man take drink. Drink take drink. Drink take man.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#16
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
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#16
Hakawaka said:
Hello there friends, brothers and sisters in Christ

I am a tee-totaler as they say, I never drink anything, but I am of the opinion that the biblical communion is alcoholic wine. But because I am a tee-totaler, I would like it to be otherwise, I have heard people say its "New wine" which is non-alcoholic, but is there any evidence for this? Convince me of this guys, I ask, please convince me.

I just see alcohol as a massive evil in this world. I also think that so called "moderate" use can turn into excess very fast, and I dont think ssomeone who has never tasted alcohol turns into an alcoholic, meanwhile a moderate user can easily become one.

Does the greek/hebrew have some distinctions I dont know about?
Click to expand...
Proverbs 20:Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
 
C

ChristRoseFromTheDead

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Nov 1, 2024
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Hakawaka said:
Thanks this was an excellent article and answered many of my questions on this subject. Could you answer 1 Timothy 3:8 to me?
"
Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
"It says be not given to much wine, there are a few similar verses. If the subject isnt alcoholic wine, why warn about it?
Click to expand...
I'm sure Paul was telling Timothy to no longer drink only water, but to drink a little wine in order to calm his nervousness and put his mind at ease. Sounds like alcohol to me

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. 1 Timothy 5:23

Infirmaties
G769 ἀσθένεια astheneia (as-the'-nei-a) n.
1. feebleness (of mind or body).
 
B

Bruce_Leiter

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Feb 17, 2023
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#19
Hakawaka said:
Hello there friends, brothers and sisters in Christ

I am a tee-totaler as they say, I never drink anything, but I am of the opinion that the biblical communion is alcoholic wine. But because I am a tee-totaler, I would like it to be otherwise, I have heard people say its "New wine" which is non-alcoholic, but is there any evidence for this? Convince me of this guys, I ask, please convince me.

I just see alcohol as a massive evil in this world. I also think that so called "moderate" use can turn into excess very fast, and I dont think ssomeone who has never tasted alcohol turns into an alcoholic, meanwhile a moderate user can easily become one.

Does the greek/hebrew have some distinctions I dont know about?
Click to expand...
Look beyond this question to the meaning of it. Wine or grape juice is similar in color to blood, which is the point of Jesus' taking wine. But most churches use grape juice because of the need to care for those who may tend to be an alcoholic.
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

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Jan 16, 2021
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#20
NightTwister said:
Psalm 104:15: "You give us wine that makes happy hearts and olive oil that makes our faces shine.

Purified water doesn't do that.
Click to expand...
I'm not suggesting any prohibition....
Nor am I suggesting regular use either.

Ephesians 5 is famous for the reasoning.
"Do not be filled with wine but instead be filled with the Holy Spirit"

Now many say this is a prohibition against being drunk....
But actually it is part of a larger dissertation about being so involved with earthly pleasures that are within the boundaries of morality that you are consumed by them. This passage could have mentioned beer which they already had. Or it could have mentioned recreational drugs, which they already had as well.

BUT
These things are NOT the focus and wine is merely a handy reference point of something the wealthy used regularly. Meaning what I have previously stated....
That wine is a metaphor for anything that is within bounds of morality. But it can be clothing, vehicles, sports, luxury items of any sort.
 
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