Purgatory, Catholic Bible vs Protestant Bible
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This is where you need to show grace and no judgment.
Everyone is on a free-will journey and our outward worship varies from culture to culture but the heart is what matters as you said.
You've said a lot of things on this forum since you've been here and you seem very open minded about things which is a great trait to have.
You even said something interesting in another thread about Satan himself and Hitler where you're essentially forgiving them?
There's a lot to be said there and all i can tell you on a compressed version is to not confuse Justice with Forgiveness and don't get caught up in Universalism which is why i'm suggesting you slow down a bit and don't treat Christianity as a high-energy feel-good intense workout.
Being a follower of Christ is a joy because it's the meaning of Life. It's the reason you exist because the Creator showed mercy and sent His son here.
So slow down a bit and study things slowly.
Everyone is on a free-will journey and our outward worship varies from culture to culture but the heart is what matters as you said.
You've said a lot of things on this forum since you've been here and you seem very open minded about things which is a great trait to have.
You even said something interesting in another thread about Satan himself and Hitler where you're essentially forgiving them?
There's a lot to be said there and all i can tell you on a compressed version is to not confuse Justice with Forgiveness and don't get caught up in Universalism which is why i'm suggesting you slow down a bit and don't treat Christianity as a high-energy feel-good intense workout.
Being a follower of Christ is a joy because it's the meaning of Life. It's the reason you exist because the Creator showed mercy and sent His son here.
So slow down a bit and study things slowly.
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In fairness to the Catholics their Bible is not much different from a so-called Protestant Bible, really they are actually the verry same just merely the Catholics contain the deuterocanon and usually a forward written by their church explaining their canonization process and ecumenical councils that surronded the compilation and translation of the modern Bible.
That said, there is not really a Purgatory in the Bible both Catholic and Protestant versions. Nor is as some might claim it a pagan idea even either. The concept of Purgatory developed much later in time from both the Bible canon as well as the dead pagan religions of the ancient Europeans. Alot of the concept of Purgatory it seems by my studies were never intended to be serious doctrines but were just employed by medieval writers that just so happened to be Christian. They didn't really make it up to seriously create a heresy nor to make it a doctrine of religion, but it seems made it for the sake of poetic quality in intentionally fictional or artistic works or as a means of some sort of intellectual expression more akin a status one goes through, literally purging their sins right here on Earth while they're alive rather than a serious geographical afterlife destination.
My theory then is that they influenced probably the pop culture of their times and places which just so happened to have become Christian only a few centuries prior, and then shortly after also underwent the advent of mass literacy, the Renaissance, and also the Reformation that really made distinctions between Catholics and Protestants, so that the intellectual castes of both, which just happened to be religious and Christian, simply imbibed or jostled over the idea. From there into our modern era and then present day it just seems to be still somewhat the same, all Bible readers that have dilligently read all the Bible they must be honest and say that you cannot see a concept of Purgatory in it.
So just like we cannot say truthfully that the concept of Purgatory is real, and we must truthfully attest that it is contrary to the Bible's views of the afterlife being either eternal salvation and life in God's Kingdom or eternal suffering and damnation in the Lake of Fire which Hell is thrown into,, it also isn't totally fair to say that the Catholics or Protestants are heretics or pagans over it for using or rejecting it either since really the idea originates before the Reformation but after the Early Church, albeit as a word and concept that is known to be fictional, artistic, or more like a cultural or intellectual expression rather than a genuine matter of high religion and the afterlife.
That said, there is not really a Purgatory in the Bible both Catholic and Protestant versions. Nor is as some might claim it a pagan idea even either. The concept of Purgatory developed much later in time from both the Bible canon as well as the dead pagan religions of the ancient Europeans. Alot of the concept of Purgatory it seems by my studies were never intended to be serious doctrines but were just employed by medieval writers that just so happened to be Christian. They didn't really make it up to seriously create a heresy nor to make it a doctrine of religion, but it seems made it for the sake of poetic quality in intentionally fictional or artistic works or as a means of some sort of intellectual expression more akin a status one goes through, literally purging their sins right here on Earth while they're alive rather than a serious geographical afterlife destination.
My theory then is that they influenced probably the pop culture of their times and places which just so happened to have become Christian only a few centuries prior, and then shortly after also underwent the advent of mass literacy, the Renaissance, and also the Reformation that really made distinctions between Catholics and Protestants, so that the intellectual castes of both, which just happened to be religious and Christian, simply imbibed or jostled over the idea. From there into our modern era and then present day it just seems to be still somewhat the same, all Bible readers that have dilligently read all the Bible they must be honest and say that you cannot see a concept of Purgatory in it.
So just like we cannot say truthfully that the concept of Purgatory is real, and we must truthfully attest that it is contrary to the Bible's views of the afterlife being either eternal salvation and life in God's Kingdom or eternal suffering and damnation in the Lake of Fire which Hell is thrown into,, it also isn't totally fair to say that the Catholics or Protestants are heretics or pagans over it for using or rejecting it either since really the idea originates before the Reformation but after the Early Church, albeit as a word and concept that is known to be fictional, artistic, or more like a cultural or intellectual expression rather than a genuine matter of high religion and the afterlife.
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It isn't easy to get into Catholicism's purgatory; the reason being that
according to CCC.1035 of the Roman Catholic Catechism, it only takes one
unabsolved mortal sin to cause them to miss the boat.
For example: let's say somebody has been a faithful Catholic 45 years, and
then dies with an un-absolved mortal sin on the books. Well; those 45 years
will be disregarded and they will go directly to Hell as if they'd been an
Atheist, a Hindu, or a Muslim all their lives: that's how lethal unabsolved
mortal sins are.
BTW: According to CCC.393 there is no repentance for men after death. So
Catholics have pretty much got to get everything right before they pass on.
_
It isn't easy to get into Catholicism's purgatory; the reason being that
according to CCC.1035 of the Roman Catholic Catechism, it only takes one
unabsolved mortal sin to cause them to miss the boat.
For example: let's say somebody has been a faithful Catholic 45 years, and
then dies with an un-absolved mortal sin on the books. Well; those 45 years
will be disregarded and they will go directly to Hell as if they'd been an
Atheist, a Hindu, or a Muslim all their lives: that's how lethal unabsolved
mortal sins are.
BTW: According to CCC.393 there is no repentance for men after death. So
Catholics have pretty much got to get everything right before they pass on.
_
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I was baptized an infant into Roman Catholicism back in 1944 and anon
completed enough catechism to achieve First Holy Communion and
Confirmation.
Though I no longer assist the Church to propagate itself, it's said that once a
Catholic always a Catholic. Well; maybe so, but in my case "apostate" would
be a better description.
_
Why do you assume the catholic religion was ""spirit led""?
If the catholic religion was Spirit led then it would never have produced the doctrine of Purgatory.. Because the doctrine of purgatory is denial of the sufficiency of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus for the covering of our sins.. When we trust in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus we are purged of all our sins we are covered by the blood of the LORD.. This is basic Christianity 101.. A basic belief that Christians must embrace to be saved.. But the catholic religion preaches that NO Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins in full on the cross.. They preach that after death you must go to a place called Purgatory to suffer to have your sins purged from you.. A place where YOU pay the Penalty for your own sin..
The doctrine of purgatory is nothing less then an Atonement denying doctrine of demons..
It's up to each individual to decide what is the truth and what is a Lie.. If one embraces a lie they show themselves to be a lover of unrighteousness and therefore will be justifiably subject the the judgement of the LORD on the day of judgement.. Of course if you embrace only the truth of the Gospel then you will show yourself to be a lover of truth and that will be justified on the day of judgement.. This purgatory doctrine is a serious thing with eternal consequences..
My LORD Jesus suffered death on the cross and His precious blood payed the penalty that was upon me for all my transgressions against His will.. Jesus paid the penalty for all my sins.. That's what I believe.. What do you believe?
If the catholic religion was Spirit led then it would never have produced the doctrine of Purgatory.. Because the doctrine of purgatory is denial of the sufficiency of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus for the covering of our sins.. When we trust in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus we are purged of all our sins we are covered by the blood of the LORD.. This is basic Christianity 101.. A basic belief that Christians must embrace to be saved.. But the catholic religion preaches that NO Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins in full on the cross.. They preach that after death you must go to a place called Purgatory to suffer to have your sins purged from you.. A place where YOU pay the Penalty for your own sin..
The doctrine of purgatory is nothing less then an Atonement denying doctrine of demons..
It's up to each individual to decide what is the truth and what is a Lie.. If one embraces a lie they show themselves to be a lover of unrighteousness and therefore will be justifiably subject the the judgement of the LORD on the day of judgement.. Of course if you embrace only the truth of the Gospel then you will show yourself to be a lover of truth and that will be justified on the day of judgement.. This purgatory doctrine is a serious thing with eternal consequences..
My LORD Jesus suffered death on the cross and His precious blood payed the penalty that was upon me for all my transgressions against His will.. Jesus paid the penalty for all my sins.. That's what I believe.. What do you believe?
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Why not say the same thing for islamists and jehovah's witnesses and mormons? Many islamic imams seek allah's earnestly you know, Do they love the qurans lies about God and His will? The Holy Spirit does rebuke catholics with His Word.. Either directly by people reading His Word of by preachers sharing the truth of the LORD's will to them.. I experienced this myself.. I had a choice to make and i made it..
I was born into a catholic family.. I had and still have an uncle who is a priest.. I served 10 years as an altar boy.. went to a convent primary school and a marist brothers High/ college.. I received the catholic sacraments.. Prayed the Hail Mary more times then i can number.. But when i read the Word of God i found out about the Awesome Atonement of the LORD Jesus and believed it and Trusted in it.. Each and every person needs to make their own decision in regard to what is truth and what is a lie..
I was born into a catholic family.. I had and still have an uncle who is a priest.. I served 10 years as an altar boy.. went to a convent primary school and a marist brothers High/ college.. I received the catholic sacraments.. Prayed the Hail Mary more times then i can number.. But when i read the Word of God i found out about the Awesome Atonement of the LORD Jesus and believed it and Trusted in it.. Each and every person needs to make their own decision in regard to what is truth and what is a lie..
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This happened in the Counsel of Trent in I think was 1512, it was voted certain texts written out and certain ones in, which is today the Cannon
The Catholic Church chose to not remove certain texts and so there we have it.
The Dead Sea Scrolls discovered years later has a lot in them, The book of Enoch as well.
Yet, bottom line is, God knows all, sees all, and fixed all in Son Jesus as risen for us to be content in all things happening, happened or even might happen
Paul saw to be content in all things
Philippians 4
Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. ...
Philippians 4:11
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
He was in Jail and content, joyful still, stayed trusting and happy, the Jail help saw this contentment and became believers too.
Seeing Saul before was Paul, saw Stephen go to his own death willingly, while being stoned to death for believing in the risen Jesus, that Saul agreed to have done to him. Saul, watched Stephan go willingly, then that road to Damascus. I see why Paul was Content in all things
Philippians 1:16
the one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
It matters not who Blaspheme's who, here or there. Only if one will not consciously believe God and be willing to be new in the same love and mercy given thee by Son on that cross who willingly went there to reconcile us all first (Forgive) that part is done. The only thing left is to believe or not believe God in risen Son for them, to be new in the same love and mercy given us by that cross in reconciliation to all, not a few as only religion knows how to do only
This grace given was never meant. to be taken for granted and used for any self gain ever
The Catholic Church chose to not remove certain texts and so there we have it.
The Dead Sea Scrolls discovered years later has a lot in them, The book of Enoch as well.
Yet, bottom line is, God knows all, sees all, and fixed all in Son Jesus as risen for us to be content in all things happening, happened or even might happen
Paul saw to be content in all things
Philippians 4
Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. ...
Philippians 4:11
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
He was in Jail and content, joyful still, stayed trusting and happy, the Jail help saw this contentment and became believers too.
Seeing Saul before was Paul, saw Stephen go to his own death willingly, while being stoned to death for believing in the risen Jesus, that Saul agreed to have done to him. Saul, watched Stephan go willingly, then that road to Damascus. I see why Paul was Content in all things
Philippians 1:16
the one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
It matters not who Blaspheme's who, here or there. Only if one will not consciously believe God and be willing to be new in the same love and mercy given thee by Son on that cross who willingly went there to reconcile us all first (Forgive) that part is done. The only thing left is to believe or not believe God in risen Son for them, to be new in the same love and mercy given us by that cross in reconciliation to all, not a few as only religion knows how to do only
This grace given was never meant. to be taken for granted and used for any self gain ever
The Orthodox Church is not Catholic but i don't recommend you go to one, despite being in Scotland because it would be a culture shock for you.
That's how the Protestant Churches seemed to me initially. I do have an open mind so that eventually let me to seek and understand the differences, see the good in all the people and then participate with them.
So unless you have an open mind, you will have a culture shock.
That's how the Protestant Churches seemed to me initially. I do have an open mind so that eventually let me to seek and understand the differences, see the good in all the people and then participate with them.
So unless you have an open mind, you will have a culture shock.
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@jacko the reason you need to slow down a bit is so you don't confuse concepts too.
I don't know where you live, (West coast maybe) but in one of your topics you were sort of confusing complaining with sharing.
Did you ever think to apply that question to yourself when you were "complaining" about having no job?
Is that a complaint or a share?
But many members gave you answers in that topic and because you have an open mind, you understood the difference (i hope).
God bless you brother and be patient and grateful for all the things you do have.
I don't know where you live, (West coast maybe) but in one of your topics you were sort of confusing complaining with sharing.
Did you ever think to apply that question to yourself when you were "complaining" about having no job?
Is that a complaint or a share?
But many members gave you answers in that topic and because you have an open mind, you understood the difference (i hope).
God bless you brother and be patient and grateful for all the things you do have.
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FAQ: I'm considering joining the Catholic Church. Would it be a mistake?
REPLY: Catholicism is a beautiful religion what with its art, its liturgy, and its
architecture, but it's not easy.
Once someone is fully committed by completing First Holy Communion and
Confirmation and undergone Christian baptism; they will be expected to
comply with everything Rome teaches and stands for, e.g. the
Commandments, the Canon Law, the dogma, the rituals, the Traditions, the
Councils, the Bulls, the Encyclicals, the rites, the holy days of obligation, and
the entire Catechism; plus everything that Jesus and the apostles taught in
the New Testament, i.e. all four gospels and all twenty-one epistles, plus
Acts and Revelation. That's a lot to remember, let alone put into practice.
And then there's the matter of mortal sin. When Catholics leave this life with
just one mortal sin on the books awaiting absolution, just one, they go
straight to Hell. It's a direct flight; no stopover in a Purgatory. Even if a
Catholic manages to be a top performer in faith and practice for fifty years,
none of that will be taken into consideration. They will leave this life as if
they'd been a pagan the whole time. Mortal sins are that lethal.
And be aware that once someone joins the Catholic Church, they will no
longer be permitted to either interpret, or apply, the Holy Bible's teachings
sans hierarchy oversight per CCC.85 which says:
"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether
in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the
living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is
exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This means that the task of
interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the
successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome."
A measure of Orwellian thought control isn't necessarily disagreeable as
some folks prefer being told what to believe rather than figuring things out
for themselves; and others feel secure having a hierarchy to blame if
perchance Catholicism proves misleading-- I'm only saying that CCC.85 is a
level of governance that critical thinkers might find a bit too invasive.
_
FAQ: I'm considering joining the Catholic Church. Would it be a mistake?
REPLY: Catholicism is a beautiful religion what with its art, its liturgy, and its
architecture, but it's not easy.
Once someone is fully committed by completing First Holy Communion and
Confirmation and undergone Christian baptism; they will be expected to
comply with everything Rome teaches and stands for, e.g. the
Commandments, the Canon Law, the dogma, the rituals, the Traditions, the
Councils, the Bulls, the Encyclicals, the rites, the holy days of obligation, and
the entire Catechism; plus everything that Jesus and the apostles taught in
the New Testament, i.e. all four gospels and all twenty-one epistles, plus
Acts and Revelation. That's a lot to remember, let alone put into practice.
And then there's the matter of mortal sin. When Catholics leave this life with
just one mortal sin on the books awaiting absolution, just one, they go
straight to Hell. It's a direct flight; no stopover in a Purgatory. Even if a
Catholic manages to be a top performer in faith and practice for fifty years,
none of that will be taken into consideration. They will leave this life as if
they'd been a pagan the whole time. Mortal sins are that lethal.
And be aware that once someone joins the Catholic Church, they will no
longer be permitted to either interpret, or apply, the Holy Bible's teachings
sans hierarchy oversight per CCC.85 which says:
"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether
in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the
living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is
exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This means that the task of
interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the
successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome."
A measure of Orwellian thought control isn't necessarily disagreeable as
some folks prefer being told what to believe rather than figuring things out
for themselves; and others feel secure having a hierarchy to blame if
perchance Catholicism proves misleading-- I'm only saying that CCC.85 is a
level of governance that critical thinkers might find a bit too invasive.
_
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There is no purgatory. It is not biblical. I don't know where they get it from. Catholicism has many doctrines that are not found in the Bible. No, they were not Spirit led for 1,000 years. There is a mixture of false and true teaching. False teachings came in progressively, as Paul warned would happen. It took Martin Luther and Carl Zwingli to point out the errors.
I have nothing against individual Catholics. My beef is with the organisation.
I have nothing against individual Catholics. My beef is with the organisation.
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