Question about women in the church.
- Thread starter TheLivingStone
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A good example of a harmonious hierarchy without the usurping of position and authority is the the subordination of Jesus and the Holy Spirit to God the Father. Here is a really great article on the topic, better than I can explain myself. I'll post it, but you can visit the actual page and bookmark it by clicking on the title:
It may sound strange to speak of subordination within the Trinity. After all, Jesus and the Father are “one” (John 10:30). Subordination makes us think of a lower rank or a subservient position. To understand how there can be subordination in the Trinity, it is important to understand that there are different types of subordination. The biblical or orthodox view of the triune nature of God acknowledges an economic subordination in the Trinity but denies the heretical view of an ontological subordination.
What does this mean? Simply that all three Persons of the Godhead are equal in nature. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have the same divine nature and divine attributes. Contrary to the teaching of many cults, there is no ontological subordination (no difference in the nature of the three Persons of the Godhead). This means that the Trinity is not comprised of greater and lesser gods; rather, there is one God existing eternally in three co-equal Persons.
What the Bible does teach is an economic (or relational) subordination within the Trinity. The three Persons of the triune Godhead voluntarily submit to each other respecting the roles They perform in creation and salvation. So, the Father sent the Son into the world (1 John 4:10). These roles are never reversed in Scripture: the Son never sends the Father. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is sent by Jesus and “proceeds from the Father” to testify of Christ (John 14:26; 15:26). And Jesus perfectly submitted His will to the Father’s (Luke 22:42; Hebrews 10:7).
Economic or relational subordination is simply a term to describe the relationship that exists among God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Essentially, economic subordination within the Trinity refers to what God does while ontological subordination refers to who God is.
Biblically, all three Persons of the Trinity have the same essence, nature, and glory, but each One has different roles or activities when it comes to how God relates to the world. For example, our salvation is based on the Father’s power and love (John 3:16; 10:29), the Son’s death and resurrection (1 John 2:2; Ephesians 2:6), and the Spirit’s regeneration and seal (Ephesians 4:30; Titus 3:5). The different tasks that we see the Father, Son, and Spirit perform are the result of the eternal relationship that exists among the Persons of the Trinity.
The issue of subordination within the Trinity is nuanced, and the distinction between ontological and economic subordination is fine indeed. Theologians within Christian orthodoxy continue to debate the limits of subordination and its relation to the Incarnation of Christ. Such discussions are profitable as we study the Scriptures and think through the truth about the nature of God.
And God also set male and female this way. Both genders are of equal value to God, but we play different roles that He had set just as the Trinity also has different roles from each other that make a very effective and harmonious whole in operation.
But this debate really IS showing that Jesus is coming back. I was reading a book about signs that we'll see before Jesus comes back and the author talked more about "kingdom against kingdom" which I thought was rather curious to mention when "nation against nation" had already been mentioned. The author says that "kingdom against kingdom" is more about a battle against ideas and ideologies and when I read that, it was like, "Ah! Now I get it!"
This whole gender roles in Christianity conflict falls into the category of "kingdom against kingdom."
What is your take on this passage? Thanks buddy.
Gen 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Furthermore, there is indication in this passage that the now fallen woman would be in conflict with the mans authority.
@Snackersmom could be on to something with this Y chromosome authority "problem".
It looks like you’re ignoring the context. It is a statement of certain consequence resulting from the woman’s choice, just as verses 17-19 show the certain consequences of the man’s choice. The woman will desire her husband’s affection but he will rule her harshly. Your attitude is a perfect example of the unpleasant consequences.
The now-fallen man’s corrupt “authority”? Riiiiiight.
Hi Derobo, I was actually engaging with a different user but I appreciate your above comments
.I do have to take issue that every prophet God used in the O.T. was male, MOST of them were male but you are forgetting about Deborah, Huldah, and Miriam.
But again, my point here isn't to argue if wives should submit to their husbands. They most definitely should. I'm just trying to let you know that your tone matters (especially since you are hoping to find a lady), and leading with "God won't let you do anything important, so I'm gonna rule over you!" isn't going to make her heart go pitter-patter
.Anyways, thanks for caring and just give it some thought, k? Leading a sweet, beautiful Godly wife is a HUGE responsibility....oughta be slightly terrifying to ya I'd think.
Your phrasing is again interesting..... referring to Adam by name and Eve as "The Woman" is intriguing on a psychological level, but I won't get into that right now. But yes of course the Bible says that Eve was to submit to her husband, nobody here is arguing against that. So why do you keep bringing it up?
Are you trying to use a wife submitting to her husband as proof that all Christian women must submit to every Christian man? How are we to do that if not all Christian men agree with each other?Also, it kinda sounds like you are comparing Adam's relationship with Eve to his relationship with the critters.
The ladies must be falling over themselves in their rush to submit to you 
.This passage you quoted even indicates that the female's submission is to be towards her husband, NOT mankind in general.
I do have to give ya props for admitting that a woman might be "on to something"
*gasp* *dies* . But since you used it to insult @Dino246 then alas, I cannot praise you in that. Son, I was almost proud of you
Thats what you came up with? Doesn't make sense to me.
Really the question to be asked is whether "and he shall rule over thee"
must needs be a continuing mandate as long as the present fallen condition of man (and woman) remains.
My phrasing? Don't blame me. That is God doing the talking there.
And yes, the woman was "woman" up util Adam JOYOUSLY renamed her "EVE" the "mother of all living".
So this woman who just recently "fell to her death" is now the mother of all living. Why?
Because of her RIGHT CONFESSION of the truth. Before God. In a public trial in a courtroom setting, with Satan present and probably unfallen and fallen angels packed in there.
So then God removes their "graveclothes of mourning" (fig leaves), covers them with lamb skins as an object lesson (covers them with the Blood) and redeems (yet future) BOTH Adam and the woman as a result of this trial.
I don't get why that would be a question....Ephesians 5:22 makes it clear that wives are still supposed to submit to their husbands, and this dynamic is even an allegory for the way Christians (both male and female) are to submit to Christ.
Yup, your phrasing. It's concerning. She has a name now, would be polite of you to use it
.I'm not sure what the rest of your comments have to do with the discussion at hand, so I shall bid you adieu and get on with my day!
Genesis 2:18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
Thank you for the inspiration, @Snackersmom ! I hope you and yours are well .
"She has a name now"
Hopefully you will find out why eventually. Its a critical study.
And yes, being "not sure" is.....tragically common in this day and age.
I am sorry you see woman as weak and pathetic. I bet it amazes you that they serve as combatants in the military, with some of them holding high ranks.
The modern woman are not the weak and feeble woman from 2500 years ago. Letting them live life was a very smart thing we did here in the USA. It makes them much more desirable. They look better, they sound better, and they can do things for them-self without requiring help, which includes heavy construction jobs. Yeah, the modern woman is much more desirable. That's what I want, is a woman who can do it herself.
Have you ever seen those woman from yesterday, who are always crying and nagging, murmuring all the time because they want their old husband to do something for them. Most of those women where fat and sat in a chair all day. They died young in their older age from being sedatary. Died complaining that nobody will, 'do it for me'.
The modern woman is smarter and more powerful than that now. Lots of woman with her weaker muscles can knock down and throw a big strong man. They even know how to incapacitate a man. They didn't have that yesterday, but today they know, and it's been very good for them to have it. Men have weak points all over him, and those woman know just how to use it, and I thank God for that wisdom and knowledge given to them. Men are just as weak as a woman. And there is nothing strong about any man anyway.
Some woman have much better and refined ways of thinking, with years of wisdom and knowledge to go with it. Much better than men.
And do not forget about the law and those who are enforcing it. If you do something stupid to a woman you are going to really get it then.
In my country woman are high ranking in the police force. that means that have positions of authority over the men, and they are very good at it. They are not the weak and feeble, can't do anymore.
I thank you God that woman in the USA are not spoon fed anymore.
The modern woman are not the weak and feeble woman from 2500 years ago. Letting them live life was a very smart thing we did here in the USA. It makes them much more desirable. They look better, they sound better, and they can do things for them-self without requiring help, which includes heavy construction jobs. Yeah, the modern woman is much more desirable. That's what I want, is a woman who can do it herself.
Have you ever seen those woman from yesterday, who are always crying and nagging, murmuring all the time because they want their old husband to do something for them. Most of those women where fat and sat in a chair all day. They died young in their older age from being sedatary. Died complaining that nobody will, 'do it for me'.
The modern woman is smarter and more powerful than that now. Lots of woman with her weaker muscles can knock down and throw a big strong man. They even know how to incapacitate a man. They didn't have that yesterday, but today they know, and it's been very good for them to have it. Men have weak points all over him, and those woman know just how to use it, and I thank God for that wisdom and knowledge given to them. Men are just as weak as a woman. And there is nothing strong about any man anyway.
Some woman have much better and refined ways of thinking, with years of wisdom and knowledge to go with it. Much better than men.
And do not forget about the law and those who are enforcing it. If you do something stupid to a woman you are going to really get it then.
In my country woman are high ranking in the police force. that means that have positions of authority over the men, and they are very good at it. They are not the weak and feeble, can't do anymore.
I thank you God that woman in the USA are not spoon fed anymore.
Genesis 2:18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
Thank you for the inspiration, @Snackersmom ! I hope you and yours are well .
Thank you miss Magenta, lovely panel! ❤
Ezer Kenegdo has a few different interpretations but they are all quite powerful and relevant. I LOVE how the word was also used to describe God's help! Very interesting study!
We can thank @cv5 for calling it to my attention though, all I did was cross-reference so I think he gets the credit for that one
.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but my wife is quite fragile. Very vulnerable. In many ways.
I must be extremely careful and tender with her at all times. No exaggeration.
I have posted on ezer kenegdo multiple times throughout my years here... a word search of kenegdo in my postThank you miss Magenta, lovely panel! ❤
Ezer Kenegdo has a few different interpretations but they are all quite powerful and relevant. I LOVE how the word was also used to describe God's help! Very interesting study!
We can thank @cv5 for calling it to my attention though, all I did was cross-reference so I think he gets the credit for that one
stream shows eighteen usages (that would exclude the panel!) going back to April 27, 2019. On the other hand,
it shows up zero times in cv's post stream. Hmmm. Anywho... You are welcome!
PS~ now I can just post the panel instead of searching out past posts to share the info again .
D
Derobo
Guest
Genesis 2:18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
Thank you for the inspiration, @Snackersmom ! I hope you and yours are well .
As regarding to Gods view on us, no we are all humans and his creation, he don't see us one better than the other (gender wise)
but he did create us differently, with different strengths and therefor we have different roles, if you read the bible you will find this very easily.
You don't hire a lawyer to cut trees down, and you don't hire a mechanic to cut hair.
same as us, he created each gender for its own purpose and role, and its beautiful when you think about it, each have strengths and weaknesses, and we are suppossed to compliment each other not take over each others roles.
this is the last im gonna say on this subject.
God bless You Magenta, Snackersmom and CV5
If “and he shall rule over thee” is a “continuing mandate” then so is this:
“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground….”
Perhaps you should reconsider your interpretation.
Hello?
BOTH the first and second are certainly in force today. Beyond the shadow of a doubt.