Question about women in the church.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
∎The word men (anthrōpos) is collectively to all people (men and women)
These gifts include “apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.” ....The purpose of these gift ministries is to build up the Body of Christ, but how are women who have these ministries supposed to walk in the fullness of them............ if they cannot teach?

I'm not joining in this thread to "argue" either side... I just wanted to point out a couple of things.

In this passage, where it says "and gave gifts to "anthropos" [to 'mankind']"... the "gifts" He gave to "mankind" were the persons: Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers" (<--these PERSONS are the "gifts" to "anthropos / mankind").

It's not saying He gave the individual gifts to individuals of mankind (as you put it, "these gift ministries")... He "gave" these particular PERSONS [as the "gifts"] to mankind.

See the difference?



Elsewhere there ARE listings of "gifts" given to individual "members" (of the Body); but that is not the point being made in THIS context.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant diakonos = deacon of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Yes, this is the verse I believe "Mem" had in mind, when addressing "Derobo" earlier in the thread... making the point that the Greek uses the SAME G1249 " διάκονον διάκονοςdiakonos " word that is used in the other texts (like in 1Tim3:12 [about men], etc) - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g1249/kjv/tr/0-1/ ... so her point is, basically, why is that?

"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant G1249 of the church which is at Cenchrea:"



[note: I am not making the point that "Phebe" was LEADER (and certainly not saying she was leader OVER MEN)... I'm just pointing out that it is the SAME GREEK WORD]

 

[cv5]

What if the equation of the present state of eschatological developments doesn't correlate as much with the inclusion of women in ministry as it does with the exclusion of women in ministry?
"Without vision, the people perish... (Proverbs 29:18a)."

Maybe. But whatever the case the clock is ticking down to midnight. Rapidly.

 

[cv5]

being a leader / pastor / minister in church or a home church or any place where there is mixed people woman, men and children is very different.
no woman has ever been this, nor will there ever be ( legally that is )

That would be the boots on the ground reality in terms of recorded historical precedent. Unequivocally.

This thread is wrestling more with fanciful theoretical constructs and less with historical fact.

But then again, this recently imposed psychosis of "equality" and "equity" is all the rage nowadays.
In fact several posters have "proudly" proclaimed their recent affinity to same.

Glad its not me man. Being swept away with every wind of doctrine that is.

Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

And here it is: headship and fitting into the body by finding your place. Which may NOT be headship!

Eph 4:15
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Derobo]

That would be the boots on the ground reality in terms of recorded historical precedent. Unequivocally.

This thread is wrestling more with fanciful theoretical constructs and less with historical fact.

But then again, this recently imposed psychosis of "equality" and "equity" is all the rage nowadays.
In fact several posters have "proudly" proclaimed their recent affinity to same.

Glad its not me man. Being swept away with every wind of doctrine that is.

Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

And here it is: headship and fitting into the body by finding your place. Which may NOT be headship!

Eph 4:15
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

That would be the boots on the ground reality in terms of recorded historical precedent. Unequivocally.

This thread is wrestling more with fanciful theoretical constructs and less with historical fact.

But then again, this recently imposed psychosis of "equality" and "equity" is all the rage nowadays.
In fact several posters have "proudly" proclaimed their recent affinity to same.

Glad its not me man. Being swept away with every wind of doctrine that is.

Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

And here it is: headship and fitting into the body by finding your place. Which may NOT be headship!

Eph 4:15
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Your right, its a sickness. equality is not equality.
they want to take over the mans role too.
i mean in secular world is one thing, but its crept in the church past years, and all im gonna say is, there is a lack of fear of God.

 

[homwardbound]

There is truth now presentl in risen Son Jesus, no difference in male, female, Jew, Greek or Gentile. seeing all are one in Christ!
Now discernment comes, to discern, be wise as a serpent, remaining harmless as a dove, cause no wars in the flesh of people, fighting and waring after this and that

1 Corinthians 3

Living Bible

Dear brothers, I have been talking to you as though you were still just babies in the Christian life who are not following the Lord but your own desires; I cannot talk to you as I would to healthy Christians who are filled with the Spirit. I have had to feed you with milk and not with solid food because you couldn’t digest anything stronger. And even now you still have to be fed on milk. For you are still only baby Christians, controlled by your own desires, not God’s. When you are jealous of one another and divide up into quarreling groups, doesn’t that prove you are still babies, wanting your own way?

therefore you not feeling good about t what is going on in that place of fellowship, stay out, do not go or go against anyone, over it, thanks.
Rather trust God all in all to teach you from what you see and hear. Read the Bible personally to know God fruitfully in God's love and mercy for you, us all, given to us by son on that cross, done once for us all (Hebrews 10:10)
To ask now for the new life offered to us as in John 10:10

John 10:10

Living Bible

The thief’s purpose is to steal, kill and destroy. My purpose is to give life in all its fullness.
Who, what is the Thief there?
Could be our emotional reactions and actions that steal, kill and destroy
Learning, me learning to not let emotion run the train I am on in Father and Son
A train has an engine and a caboose. The Engine is god in the leading pulling the train along the tracks. The Caboose is emotion(s) following
If the caboose is leading what is likely to happen?
You get it, thanks

 

[Webers.Home]

i mean in secular world is one thing, but its crept in the church past years,

Equality is a hot-button with which sharp heretics are very effective in their
quest to break up congregational unity. Like it's said: A house divided
against itself cannot stand, viz: divide and conquer is still to this day a valid
strategy.

● 2Cor 2:11 . .We are not unaware of the Devil's schemes.
_

 

[Edify]

Colossians 4:15
New International Version
Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.
New Living Translation
Please give my greetings to our brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church that meets in her house.
English Standard Version
Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.
Berean Standard Bible
Greet the brothers in Laodicea, as well as Nympha and the church that meets at her house.
New American Standard Bible
Greet the brothers and sisters who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

The KJV doesn't agree.
King James Bible
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Paul went out of his way to mention both her & her church because she was its pastor.
The KJV translators went out of their way to cover it up.

Then we have this:
Romans 16:7
New International Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
New Living Translation
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did.
English Standard Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
Berean Standard Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
King James Bible
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
New American Standard Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding in the view of the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Junia is a woman.
There's no way of getting around this one.
Either she's an apostle, OR the apostles knew her so well they thought she was outstanding.

And no, it wasn't for her cooking or cleaning either.
How else do you get such a outstanging reputation in the apostles' minds..... ministry!!!

What else could you do to impress an apostle???
And BTW this was when the only communication was word of mouth.

 

[Derobo]

Equality is a hot-button with which sharp heretics are very effective in their
quest to break up congregational unity. Like it's said: A house divided
against itself cannot stand, viz: divide and conquer is still to this day a valid
strategy.

● 2Cor 2:11 . .We are not unaware of the Devil's schemes.
_

amen brother!!!

 

[Derobo]

Paul begins his list in Ephesians 4:11 with apostles. Apostles were people sent initially by Jesus (Mark 6:7; Gal. 1:1), and later by the church (Acts 13:1–3), to pioneer a new work that facilitated the spread of the gospel. In the New Testament, several people, apart from the Twelve, are mentioned as being apostles.[3] One of these is a woman named Junia.

Junia and Andronicus (who may have been husband and wife) were members of the church in Rome. Perhaps they were founding members of the church there. Paul speaks warmly about them in Romans 16:7, mentioning that they are his relatives or fellow Jews, and that they had become Christians before he did. Andronicus and Junia had suffered persecution because of their faith and at some point had been fellow prisoners with Paul. Paul also states that Andronicus and Junia were “outstanding among the apostles.” This is a wonderful commendation coming from someone who was himself an outstanding apostle.[4]

Unfortunately, Junia’s impact as a precedent for female church leadership has been slight because many people have failed to realise that she was a woman. The feminine name “Junia” was not uncommon in antiquity, whereas the masculine name “Junias” is unheard of Nevertheless, in the 13th century, Aegidius (Giles) of Rome took her name to be masculine. After him, others also believed Junia to have been a man. This is despite the fact that several early church fathers, such as Chrysostom, Origen, and Jerome, referred to her as being both female and an apostle

uo


Sister you are not reading it correctly, you have to understand that Junia was of note AMONG the apostles, as scripture says, what does that mean?
it doesn't mean she was an apostle, it means she was well known AMONG the apostles, hence the apostles knew her, she was not an apostle, otherwise he would say something like she was a well known apostle, or a beloved apostle but no she was not an apostle.
for example if my dad is working as a politician, and i his child go with him sometimes and meet other politicians, they could say im of note among the politicians because they know me and find me esteemed, but that doesn't make me a politician.

this is what other sources say when you search for Junia.
for example the christian encyclopedia:

Andronicus and Junia (Rom 16:7) are indeed said to be ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, “of note among the apostles;” but these words by no means imply that they were apostles, but only that they were well known and esteemed by the apostles. The συνεργο . . . the fellow- workers of the apostles.

Church father Origen for example said she was a woman but in his latest writings he said Junia/S was a male.

Also one record of the male name "Junias" has been discovered in extra-biblical Greek literature, which names him as the bishop of Apameia of Syria.

Remember also this is all you got for a ''potential'' female apostle, but if there was female apostles you would have several of them and we would not have this discussion now, because we all want the truth and if its there we will never have this discussion, but that is not the case there are none, and you guys hold on tightly to a small verse that doesn't even say she's an apostle but well known or well esteemed AMONG the apostles, so we have to use our God given Logic.

there are no female pastors or Apostles, or any Female leaders in the church, this is historical and you can search it up for yourself.
you can find deacons which means a servant , helper or minister, but that was only for other women and children.

think about this a bit. Please sister

 

[daisyseesthesun]

uo


Sister you are not reading it correctly, you have to understand that Junia was of note AMONG the apostles, as scripture says, what does that mean?
it doesn't mean she was an apostle, it means she was well known AMONG the apostles, hence the apostles knew her, she was not an apostle, otherwise he would say something like she was a well known apostle, or a beloved apostle but no she was not an apostle.
for example if my dad is working as a politician, and i his child go with him sometimes and meet other politicians, they could say im of note among the politicians because they know me and find me esteemed, but that doesn't make me a politician.

this is what other sources say when you search for Junia.
for example the christian encyclopedia:

Andronicus and Junia (Rom 16:7) are indeed said to be ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, “of note among the apostles;” but these words by no means imply that they were apostles, but only that they were well known and esteemed by the apostles. The συνεργο . . . the fellow- workers of the apostles.

Church father Origen for example said she was a woman but in his latest writings he said Junia/S was a male.

Also one record of the male name "Junias" has been discovered in extra-biblical Greek literature, which names him as the bishop of Apameia of Syria.

Remember also this is all you got for a ''potential'' female apostle, but if there was female apostles you would have several of them and we would not have this discussion now, because we all want the truth and if its there we will never have this discussion, but that is not the case there are none, and you guys hold on tightly to a small verse that doesn't even say she's an apostle but well known or well esteemed AMONG the apostles, so we have to use our God given Logic.

there are no female pastors or Apostles, or any Female leaders in the church, this is historical and you can search it up for yourself.
you can find deacons which means a servant , helper or minister, but that was only for other women and children.

think about this a bit. Please sister

Derobo,
I understand, but I feel you men are putting us down in this thread. Yes, I know you mean well, but even if we aren't church leaders in the same way as men, we contribute in our own ways. For instance, one of my favorite missionaries is a woman called Mary Slessor. Now, during that time in Nigeria, there were superstitions about twins, in which the mother and the twin children would be sacrificed if they were born, but Mary Slessor, upon being notified would fearlessly rescue them. She was a leader in that community, preaching to the women and children.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I understand, but I feel you men are putting us down in this thread.

What is said in Scripture is not to put women down. Simply to show their roles in the home and in the church. If you have a problem with the Word of God, then you have to address that. Men are simply stating what is in Scripture. And Christian women generally and for the longest time had no problem with that. Those who knew the Word accepted it

 

[Webers.Home]

I feel you men are putting us down in this thread.

Feelings are not facts Hon, nor are impressions admissible. And once
someone circles the wagons like you've done, the discussion is over 'cause
from thence their attitude will be defensive instead of objective.
_

 

[TheLearner]

ok that was a discussion

 

[Aussie52]

Derobo,
I understand, but I feel you men are putting us down in this thread. Yes, I know you mean well, but even if we aren't church leaders in the same way as men, we contribute in our own ways. For instance, one of my favorite missionaries is a woman called Mary Slessor. Now, during that time in Nigeria, there were superstitions about twins, in which the mother and the twin children would be sacrificed if they were born, but Mary Slessor, upon being notified would fearlessly rescue them. She was a leader in that community, preaching to the women and children.

Hi Daisey,
Unfortunately, Complementarianism (male rule) sometimes brings the worst out of men. In fact, there is the reality that domestic violence is higher amongst males holding complementarian views than those holding egalitarian views.
I am sorry that you feel put down. Not all Christian males hold this patriarchal position. In Christ there is neither male nor female, we are all one in Christ.
Peace
Jeffrey

 

[Vickivls]

I agree with you. Women can teach other woman and children, but not men. We are not to put authority over our husband nor other men.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Hi Daisey,
Unfortunately, Complementarianism (male rule) sometimes brings the worst out of men. In fact, there is the reality that domestic violence is higher amongst males holding complementarian views than those holding egalitarian views.
I am sorry that you feel put down. Not all Christian males hold this patriarchal position. In Christ there is neither male nor female, we are all one in Christ.
Peace
Jeffrey

Christian men who learn from God and obey Him don't commit domestic violence but rather reflect God's kindness, thoughtfulness and care toward those under their authority.

Egalitarian Christian men on the other hand are already in disobedience to God, putting culture and Satan's usurping authority before respect for God's order and hierarchy.

 

[Hakawaka]

I went to a new church yesterday with hopes of maybe being discipled, to get some guidance and help in the faith.

As well as the pastor speaking, a woman and the pastor's wife done a bit of preaching.

This doesn't seem right at all, 1 Timothy 2:11-14 comes to mind.

11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.


I have nothing against women but do against the modern day attitude influenced by feminism and western culture that blatantly goes against God's word.

Also it seems a bit disturbing that no one speaks out about this, pastor's, people who have been in the faith for a long time, you'd think they'd know better? Why are people just letting this happen?

Because people are gutless cowards with no integrity and backbone. They have grown up in the wicked western world that is so detached from nature and reality that they put their feminist glasses on and just skip over these biblical teachings. Or explain them away in a way, talking about oh that was the culture at that time and it was only for Corinth and its a particular situation. But these same hypocrites would not allow me to use the same type of logic when it comes to stealing, if I go to their house, steal a bunch of stuff, get caught and say "WEll, there is no verse that tells me in particular to not steal, it was written to those people at that time you know, it was given to Israel at Mt Sinai, it was given to the disciples in the 1st century" it would not work.

 

[cv5]

Derobo,
I understand, but I feel you men are putting us down in this thread. Yes, I know you mean well, but even if we aren't church leaders in the same way as men, we contribute in our own ways. For instance, one of my favorite missionaries is a woman called Mary Slessor. Now, during that time in Nigeria, there were superstitions about twins, in which the mother and the twin children would be sacrificed if they were born, but Mary Slessor, upon being notified would fearlessly rescue them. She was a leader in that community, preaching to the women and children.

Here how does this sound:

Early Church Fathers were not mothers, though mothers were invaluable.
OT Patriarchs were not matriarchs, though matriarchs are honored.
The Apostles were all men not women, though women first saw the risen Lord.
Every writer of Scripture was a male....even if he was a eunuch or gentile.
Every major prophecy was given to a male.

The priority and headship belongs to the man. God has designed us this way.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I went to a new church yesterday with hopes of maybe being discipled, to get some guidance and help in the faith.

As well as the pastor speaking, a woman and the pastor's wife done a bit of preaching.

This doesn't seem right at all, 1 Timothy 2:11-14 comes to mind.

What you need to bear in mind is that the dominant religious system where Timothy was was a "Matriacrhial" system. Paul mentions that ADAM was first, which was at odds with the prevailing "wisdom" that claimed that Eve was first, and was the one with the SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY. The phony Catholic "Blessed Virgin" is really only an extension of that fallacy. That in Roman Catholicism, MARY is more significant than Jesus point up the problem. SInce CHristians in Timothy's venue had been propagandized about feminine primacy, it's easy to see why Christian Converts who weren't yet grounded in Biblical understandings would tend to lead things astray.

Martin Luther,for example, while being ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE about "Salvation by FAITH", had been trained to accept Mariolatry according to Roman Catholic fantasies about her (it) and did so.

God in Genesis WARNS that the woman will try to Dominate, but the Husband will be the ruler.

HOWEVER since in Christianity Male/female is no longer a consideration, If a WOMAN is called to minister, there's no reason to deny her that calling.

 

[cv5]

Ada R. Habershon - Wikipedia

I am very picky when choosing what commentaries to read. But her work is.....outstanding. Astonishing really.

And yes, she had a lifelong ministry. What sort of ministry?
Well.....I would say that if falls in line with the Biblically specified order. Tidily.

Women should flourish to the greatest extent they are able. Yet give headship the man.
Yes, this is entirely feasible.

Teaching and publishing
[edit]
In the 1890s, Habershon began writing and teaching on the Bible. At the request of D. L. Moody, who she met again at the 1892 Keswick Convention, she visited the United States to deliver lectures on the Old Testament. Her time in the United States lasted a number of months through the second half of 1895. Initially, she stayed with Moody in Northfield and taught female students at Northfield Seminary. She later travelled to Chicago, teaching at the Moody Bible Institute and the Moody Church.[1] Some of this material was published in 1898 as Types in the Old Testament.

For a while after her American tour, Habershon had an itinerant teaching ministry. This included delivering talks about the Tabernacle, using a specially commissioned model. When illness prevented her from continuing in her speaking ministry, she focused on writing and publishing. She wrote a number of further books related to the Bible. Several of these were about typology, outlining how Old Testament people and events prefigured the work of Christ. Her studies of the New Testament also focused on the Parables, the miracles of Jesus and the Book of Revelation. Her books included prefaces by noted evangelical leaders, such as Sir Robert Anderson and James Martin Gray, and were reviewed in periodicals such as The Churchman and The Expository Times. At the time, it was common for Christian women to publish semi-anonymously under initials, but Habershon always wrote under her name.[1]

Commenting on her work, Brian Irwin notes that "Habershon's work is everywhere systematizing and analytical"; she took a topical approach in her books, rather than working through the Bible sequentially.[1] As an example, the chapters in her 1923 book, The Study of the Parables cover topics such as "The Trinity in the Parables" and "Pictures of Men in the Parables", rather than looking at each individual Parable in turn. In her discussions of connections between Old and New Testament, Habershon was often thorough; in her Study of the Types, she mentions over 120 parallels between Joseph and Christ.[1]