The book of Job, my favorite book.

tttallison · Sep 22, 2024

a fact Bible a gigantic puzzle, with a merciful God to all, with many stories of failures in the first testament. Which proves to me “I” need God to do God’s done work of Son as risen in the New Testament for me and everyone else too.
‘believe, receive and see new, growing in grace daily
God never forsaking anyone amazing isn’t it?

Yes, Amazing beyond our understanding.

christophernyc · Sep 22, 2024

tttallison said:

I adamantly disagree with this assessment. I see how you are trying to tie these all together, but there are some major problems with your conclusions. Here's just one for you. In Job 40:8 God asks Job "Will you condemn Me that you might be righteous?" Please notice this is a question NOT an accusation. If you keep reading you will see Job's answer to God's question. Job says no. There is more but I will cap it off at that unless you are interested in further discussion. Thanks!

christophernyc · Sep 22, 2024

christophernyc said:

tttallison said:

I believe Elihu is the writer of this book as he speaks in the first person. Job asks for a mediator who was made of clay. Job had said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. (Job 9:23)

Elihu and God
Compare these verses carefully.

Elihu said, “Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.” Job 34:35

Elihu said, “Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain: he multiplieth words without knowledge.” Job 35:16

The Lord said, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” Job 38:2
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Elihu said, “If thou canst answer me, set they words in order before me, stand up.” Job 33:5

The Lord said, “Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.” Job 38:3
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Elihu said, “Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God. Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine? Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge? Job 37:14-16

The Lord said, “Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? Canst thou set the dominion therof in the earth? Canst thou lift up they voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?” Job 38:33-34
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Elihu said, “Shall even he that hateth right govern? And wilt thou condemn him that is most just?” Job 34-17

The Lord said, “Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it.” Job 40:2
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Elihu said, “Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.” Job 32:2

Elihu said, “Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, my righteousness is more than God’s?” Job 35:2

The Lord said, “Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?” Job 40:8
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In every case Elihu said it first and the Lord repeated.

Question: if Elihu's statements are the same as God's (in word and in meaning), why does God affirm Job and not Elihu? God explicitly says (twice) at the end in chapter 42 that Job has spoken rightly of God, but God does not say that about Elihu. Have you ever wondered why?

Nehemiah6 · Sep 22, 2024

tttallison said:

"But not who he is"? So what's this? There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. There are four things said about Job in this one verse. All about who he is.

And Uz is described as "the country of Job; probably east and southeast of Palestine somewhere in the Arabian desert". Not necessarily Edom.

tttallison · Sep 22, 2024

christophernyc said:

God had no reason to explain Elihu to Job. It was by Job's request that Elihu appeared. Doesn't it appear strange to you that no one could make a reply to Elihu, and that Elihu was given six chapters to himself. Job twice requested a man of clay to be mediator between God and himself. Job's reasoning was that God would not be just. That God would laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

The two requests of Job are found in Job 9:32-35 Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Job 9:35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

AND

Job 13:19-22 Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Job 13:22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

Notice that Job first requests a mediator. Then Job asks God to take his hand away. Then he asks God to not make him afraid. Then if God does this Job says he will speak. (Can you see that these two requests are very similar.)

Then enters Elihu, and he says, Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.

In a court of Law this would be the judge ordering the defendant to stand up and make a plea.

Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. (There is no need for God to reaffirm who Elihu is. This is the answer to Job's request and Job understands it.)

Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee. (We should now understand why Job was a young man. A young man would put no fear in Job. Elihu has fulfilled the requests of Job in order for him to make his plea.)

Thank you for replying to this thread.

tttallison · Sep 22, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

No, not necessarily Edom, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence.

1. Lam 4:21 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked. (The land of Edom is only mentioned three times in the Bible. Once in Job, once in Lamentations, and once in Jeremiah.)

2. The cup that was given to Israel is very similar to the cup of woe that was given to Job.

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Lamentations 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.

Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me.

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Lamentations 3:2 He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.

Job 3:4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it. Job 19:8 He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.

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Lamentations 3:3 Surely against me is he turned; he turns his hand against me all the day.

Job 30:21 You have become cruel to me; with your strong hand you oppose yourself against me.

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Lamentations 3:4 My flesh and my skin has he made old; he hath broken my bones.

Job 30:30 My skin is black upon me and my bones are burned with heat.

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Lamentations 3:5 He has builded against me, and compassed me with gall and travel.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about, he cleaves my reins asunder, and does not spare; he pours out my gall upon the ground.

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Lamentations 3:6 He has set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old.

Job 19:8 He has fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.

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Lamentations 3:7 He has hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he has made my chain heavy.

Job 3:23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in.

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Lamentations 3:8 Also when I cry and shout, he shuts out my prayer.

Job 19:7 Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.

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Lamentations 3:9 He has enclosed my ways with hewn stone, he has made my paths crooked.

Job 30:13 They mar my path, they set forward my calamity, they have no helper.

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Lamentations 3:10 He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.

Job 10:16 --. You hunt me as a fierce lion: and again you show yourself marvelous upon me.

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Lamentations 3:11 He has turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he has made me desolate.

Job 16:7 But now he has made me weary: you have made desolate all my company.

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Lamentations 3:12 He has bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

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Lamentations 3:13 He caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about, he cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; he poureth out my gall upon the ground.

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Lamentations 3:14 I was derision to all my people; and their song all the day.

Job 30:1,9 But now they that are younger than I have me in derision, whose fathers I would have disdained to have set with the dogs of my flock.--And now I am their song, yes, I am their byword.

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Lamentations 3:15 He has filled me with bitterness; he has made me drunk with wormwood.

Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but fills me with bitterness.

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Lamentations 3:16 He has also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he has covered me with ashes.

Job 30:19 He has cast me into the mire, and I am become like dust and ashes.

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Lamentations 3:17 And you have removed my soul far off from peace: I forgot prosperity.

Job 7:15 So that my Soul chooses strangling, and death rather than my life.

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Lamentations 3:18 And I said, my strength and my hope is perished from the Lord.

Job 19:10 He has destroyed me on every side, and I am gone; and mine hope has he removed like a tree.

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cv5 · Sep 22, 2024

tttallison said:

And very VERY old. Job is likely Jobab, and Peleg was his uncle. I think 6th patriarch from Shem.
IMO, since Abraham was born around 2322 BC, these events are exceedingly ancient.

Both Job and Peleg had ages that were similar BTW.

cv5 · Sep 22, 2024

cv5 said:

At their decease. Just to clarify. Which places them in the same time frame.

tttallison · Sep 22, 2024

cv5 said:

Dating the book of Job is hard. We are told that Eliphaz is a Temanite. We know that Esau had a son called Eliphaz who had a son called Teman, from which the Temanites decended.

Elihu's father was a Buzite. Ezekiel's father's name was Buzi. Related? Possibly. Elihu was of the kindred of Ram, making him in the lineage of Judah.

Job was an old man from the beginning of the book according to Elihu. Job was given a double portion of most everything at the end of the book which could well account for his age.

Around 800 BC Jehoiada died at the age of 130.

It is my opinion that Job was contemporary with Daniel and Jeremiah.

The language is definitely late. 1000 BC at the earliest right up to the sixth Century BC.

Please don't be angry with me for expressing my opinion.

cv5 · Sep 22, 2024

tttallison said:

The LXX indicates Job died at 248 (or so) years. Groups him with Peleg. The text speaks of HUGE catastrophes......which is exactly what you would expect with the breakup of the continents.

Many other features indicate extreme age. Vastly older than the Exodus of Moses 1605 BC.

Brasspen · Sep 22, 2024

So like, I believe from learning from a pastor, that the reason Job was put through the trial, was because he was religious. God wanted to fix it.

Last thing at the moment about it, God gave back 7 fold or more what was taken from Job, as he still does for us all today.

tttallison · Sep 22, 2024

cv5 said:

Are you aware that NETS (New English Translation of the Septuagint by Oxford) has stated they have only continued the name Septuagint due to the weight of tradition. (Not surprisingly then, though the various parts of "the translation of the seventy" have many features in common, it is also true that, as modern scholarship has increasingly shown, there is wide-ranging diversity and heterogeneity within the collection—to the point that some scholars now question the continued use of the term "Septuagint,")

tttallison · Sep 22, 2024

Brasspen said:

Brasspen greetings

I would put it another way. But you are right. God loved Job and wanted to fix him. I believe all the translations say twice as much, or double.

cv5 · Sep 22, 2024

tttallison said:

The fact of the ancient Greek LXX is historically validated beyond refutation.
In fact much of the time the NT writers quote the LXX.....not the Vorlage old Hebrew.

The vacillating opinions of the supposed scholars of this age notwithstanding.

cv5 · Sep 22, 2024

tttallison said:

It certainly would not be if as you say it was written around the time of Ezekiel.

It wasn't. It is a vastly ancient account. No temple no priests no Israel no Moses no gold no silver no technology no surrounding nations no kings no wars no political upheavals no captivity no prophets no prophecies.

It is inconceivable that any post-exilic book could fail to mention these things.

tttallison · Sep 23, 2024

cv5 said:

The Septuagint Translations of Thompson and Brenton are the only ones I am aware of, and they are based on the Codex Vaticanus 1209. The Codex Vaticanus has Methusaleh living 14 years beyond the flood. In Isaiah 9:6 it has removed the names of the Messiah. Wonderful, Councilor, The mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

A book in my library from 1850 remarks that the Codex Vaticanus in 1380 had been twice reinked and the latest scribe had placed new letters in place of the old and no longer retained any value.

The Septuagint does not match the Hebrew text while the Isaiah Scroll does match the Hebrew Text. The Dead Sea Scrolls were carbon dated to 200 BC /100 AD. They never have carbon dated either the Codex Vaticanus, or the Codex Sinaiticus. (IMO a 19 Century manuscript.)

Your Septuagint would have Job at an age of 70 at a time when Elihu said Job was an old man. Job 32:6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion.

Regarding the Temple and the priests, well that was for the Jews and not the Edomites.

Love you

cv5 · Sep 23, 2024

tttallison said:

Here you go man....just a primer.

https://www.barrysetterfield.org/Septuagint_History.html

And recall that the Babel catastrophe (extremely ancient) occurs AFTER Peleg/Job.
And just to let you know, I do not subscribe to Ussher's chronology.
Ussher has the flood dated at 2348 BC (absurd), Abraham born 2322 BC (spot on and can be deduced from any version of the Bible).

cv5 · Sep 23, 2024

tttallison said:

In 289 B.C., Philadelphus became co-regent of the Ptolemaic Empire with his father, Ptolemy Soter. The Ptolemaic Empire was based in Alexandria, Egypt. In 285 Soter abdicated in favor of his 22 year old son, and died two years later at the age of 84.3 Towards the latter part of his reign, Soter had been very favorable towards the Jewish population. His son, Philadelphus, continued this policy by releasing many Jewish slaves, and placing some of them in responsible positions in the state as well as in the military.

Soter himself had been a scholar, and encouraged scholarship among the people. He gathered "men of learning" to his court. In addition, he invited the famous philosopher Strabo to tutor his son in Alexandria, while Euclid was one of the scholars whom he patronized.4 It was Ptolemy Soter who established the Great Library at Alexandria and personally appointed Demetrius Phalerius librarian, a man who had similar scholastic tendencies. Demetrius was commissioned to collect all available documents from around the world for the Library so that they could be available and consulted by anyone able to read.

It was a combination of Soter’s love of learning and his appreciation of the Jews that led him to consider the necessity of a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Due to Soter’s advancing age, Josephus, the Jewish historian tells us Demetrius approached the co-regent, Ptolemy Philadelphus, and discussed the proposal. Ptolemy agreed to finance the exercise.5 Ptolemy sent Andreas, the Captain of his Guard, and one of his close confidants, Aristeas, who had represented Jewish interests on a number of prior occasions, to Eleazar, the High Priest in Jerusalem. They came with gifts for the Temple and a request that Eleazar send scholars who were fluent in both Hebrew and Greek to do the translation. It was suggested that there should be six from each Tribe. However, Josephus specifically refers to only 70 scholars doing the translation. It is from this fact that the translation was called the Septuagint (Latin for seventy) and abbreviated to LXX (in Roman numerals).

The Hebrew Scriptures of that time comprised what we refer to today as the Old Testament. They were written on scrolls in a form of Hebrew often called Paleo-Hebrew, which was more like script; the square, modern characters came later. This translation was done, then, from Paleo-Hebrew to Koine Greek. Josephus tells us the translators were taken over the causeway from Alexandria to the Island of Pharos to a place specifically set aside for them to do the work.

We can date these events fairly accurately from the historical data. After the death of Soter, a palace intrigue developed in which Demetrius had played a part. As a result, Demetrius was sent into exile in the desert where he died from a snake bite around 282 BC. 6 Consequently, the arrangements and the start of the translation must have been made sometime between 289 and 283 BC when Philadelphus was ruling and Soter was still alive and supporting Demetrius. An extant Letter from Aristeas chronicled some of these events and mentioned that the "Law," that is the Pentateuch, had been translated by the 7th year of Philadelphus, which was 283 or 282 BC. 7 Indeed, the year 282 BC is a commonly accepted date for the completion of the Law.8 These dates therefore fit in with the death of Soter and the demise of Demetrius, and present a consistent set of facts. Philo of Alexandria also supports this account of events in his Life of Moses (2.25-44).

After that, the translation of the complete canon of Jewish Scripture was apparently finished in stages. It is possible that it was completed during the reign of Philadelphus, since he was involved in the initiation of the project. If so, this would mean it was completed before his death in 246 BC. Some view its completion as late as the 1st century BC. However, documents earlier than the 1st century suggest otherwise. "Around the middle of the second century [BC], Jewish historian, Eupolemos seems to have used a Greek version of Chronicles (Swete, Introduction to the Old Testament in Greek, 24-25). The Greek text of the Wisdom of Joshua ben Sira (also known as Sirach or Ecclesiasticus) dated about 132 BCE, contains a prologue that makes reference to a [Greek] translation of 'the law, the prophets, and the rest of the books.' " 9

tttallison · Sep 23, 2024

cv5 said:

In 289 B.C., Philadelphus became co-regent of the Ptolemaic Empire with his father, Ptolemy Soter. The Ptolemaic Empire was based in Alexandria, Egypt. In 285 Soter abdicated in favor of his 22 year old son, and died two years later at the age of 84.3 Towards the latter part of his reign, Soter had been very favorable towards the Jewish population. His son, Philadelphus, continued this policy by releasing many Jewish slaves, and placing some of them in responsible positions in the state as well as in the military.

Soter himself had been a scholar, and encouraged scholarship among the people. He gathered "men of learning" to his court. In addition, he invited the famous philosopher Strabo to tutor his son in Alexandria, while Euclid was one of the scholars whom he patronized.4 It was Ptolemy Soter who established the Great Library at Alexandria and personally appointed Demetrius Phalerius librarian, a man who had similar scholastic tendencies. Demetrius was commissioned to collect all available documents from around the world for the Library so that they could be available and consulted by anyone able to read.

It was a combination of Soter’s love of learning and his appreciation of the Jews that led him to consider the necessity of a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Due to Soter’s advancing age, Josephus, the Jewish historian tells us Demetrius approached the co-regent, Ptolemy Philadelphus, and discussed the proposal. Ptolemy agreed to finance the exercise.5 Ptolemy sent Andreas, the Captain of his Guard, and one of his close confidants, Aristeas, who had represented Jewish interests on a number of prior occasions, to Eleazar, the High Priest in Jerusalem. They came with gifts for the Temple and a request that Eleazar send scholars who were fluent in both Hebrew and Greek to do the translation. It was suggested that there should be six from each Tribe. However, Josephus specifically refers to only 70 scholars doing the translation. It is from this fact that the translation was called the Septuagint (Latin for seventy) and abbreviated to LXX (in Roman numerals).

The Hebrew Scriptures of that time comprised what we refer to today as the Old Testament. They were written on scrolls in a form of Hebrew often called Paleo-Hebrew, which was more like script; the square, modern characters came later. This translation was done, then, from Paleo-Hebrew to Koine Greek. Josephus tells us the translators were taken over the causeway from Alexandria to the Island of Pharos to a place specifically set aside for them to do the work.

We can date these events fairly accurately from the historical data. After the death of Soter, a palace intrigue developed in which Demetrius had played a part. As a result, Demetrius was sent into exile in the desert where he died from a snake bite around 282 BC. 6 Consequently, the arrangements and the start of the translation must have been made sometime between 289 and 283 BC when Philadelphus was ruling and Soter was still alive and supporting Demetrius. An extant Letter from Aristeas chronicled some of these events and mentioned that the "Law," that is the Pentateuch, had been translated by the 7th year of Philadelphus, which was 283 or 282 BC. 7 Indeed, the year 282 BC is a commonly accepted date for the completion of the Law.8 These dates therefore fit in with the death of Soter and the demise of Demetrius, and present a consistent set of facts. Philo of Alexandria also supports this account of events in his Life of Moses (2.25-44).

After that, the translation of the complete canon of Jewish Scripture was apparently finished in stages. It is possible that it was completed during the reign of Philadelphus, since he was involved in the initiation of the project. If so, this would mean it was completed before his death in 246 BC. Some view its completion as late as the 1st century BC. However, documents earlier than the 1st century suggest otherwise. "Around the middle of the second century [BC], Jewish historian, Eupolemos seems to have used a Greek version of Chronicles (Swete, Introduction to the Old Testament in Greek, 24-25). The Greek text of the Wisdom of Joshua ben Sira (also known as Sirach or Ecclesiasticus) dated about 132 BCE, contains a prologue that makes reference to a [Greek] translation of 'the law, the prophets, and the rest of the books.' " 9

I would say this reply would be better served in a new thread. What would you name it? Thank you.

cv5 · Sep 23, 2024

tttallison said:

Sorry too busy with work right now.
As far as I can tell, you opine that we should forget about the LXX altogether.

Big mistake.

The book of Job, my favorite book.

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