Loss of salvation???

[sawdust]

this isn't about how they learned or how we learn.

It's what I was talking about.

 

[sawdust]

but if they had no concept if right or wrong, and we do, then they didn't apprehend in the same way we do, and none of your philosophies about the acquisition of knowledge are relevant to them.

Oh please, they were human the same as we are. They learned the same way we did. You had no concept of right or wrong either when you were born. The difference is that we have an inner wrongness Adam, Eve and Christ never had to deal with. Until the Fall, Adam and Eve could only experience evil from an outside source. They didn't need to understand evil for if they had obeyed the word of God, they would have been in a position to learn good from evil. Failing at the first encounter of evil was not the way to go.

You would have two thirds of the angels still ignorant based on your understanding.

Is was about rejecting the truth. God could have said "don't pick your nose" and Adam would still have fallen if he disobeyed the command. Eating was symptomatic of a deeper problem, rejecting truth and believing the lie. Adam wanted to eat the fruit and Eve gave him the excuse he needed to justify his own evil desire and take the fruit and eat.

As far as your theory about it only applying to Adam? Guess you forgot.

Genesis 2:24
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

What applied to Adam applied to Eve.

 

[Beckworth]

Simple example

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When this word was eves belief she hadn’t eaten the fruit

“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they had the freedom to eat from the tree of life already at this point , and they’ve been told the truth about the deadly fruit. They are safe because thier mind about the fruit is correct it’s based on what God told them about the fruit it’s going to keep them away from the fruit but then

her belief is attacked with a false doctrine about the fruit that causes death

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-5‬ ‭

If I believe this is true about the fruit , then I’m going to eat it it’s a good thing . But if I remember what God said and believe him , I’m not going to eat the fruit it’s death which will I believe is the question Gods word ? Or the other words out there telling me what God said isn’t true ?

a look what happens when she hears and believes the wrong word something happens to her and her his and who also did the same thing because of the same word she shared with him

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they lost the battle the moment they disbelieved Gods warning about the fruit and accepted the lie it altered thier belief about the fruit and that’s why they are the fruit . They didn’t believe Gods warning but satans temptation instead

Yes, it’s all about not trusting and believing God; instead she believed Satan’s lies. There is an Old Testament story that illustrates this, too. I King 13. Each time, Satan said the very opposite of what God said. God said “You will die.” Satan said, “You will NOT die.” If God says “yes”, Satan will say, “no”. That is STILL going on today. And people are still taking Satan’s words over God’s. In the garden Satan worked through a serpent; in 1 Kings 13, he worked through a prophet; he worked through Peter in Matthew 16:23. Today, Satan is still working through men—preachers, and lay men. The Bible warns many times about false teachers, false doctrines , and commandments of men. 1John 4:1 says, Do not believe every spirit but TEST” the spirits whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” What are these false prophets teaching? They are being led by Satan and preaching HIS message; you can be sure it is a false teacher if what they teach contradicts what God says in the Bible. They do not wear horns and a forked tail; many times they may wear ecclesiastical robes. Jesus called them “sheep” in wolves clothing. Matthew 7:15-16. They may look BEAUTIFUL! Jesus said Satan could turn himself into an ANGEL of light! 2 Cor. 11:13-14. Jesus says the way we can know them is by their “fruits”. That is by what they teach. But to do that, we HAVE TO KNOw WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. Otherwise, we will think they are telling the truth. Did Satan lie to Eve in the garden? Yes, He did. And Satan’s helpers today will lie to us the same way. So God says in 1 Thess. 5:21 to PROVE (test) ALL THINGS. The only way we can “test” or prove anything is by the Bible.

On a site such as this, you can read comments from many different people, expressing, many different beliefs, and many, many OPINIONS. Please do not take a man’s word for anything. Insist on “proof” from God word for what you believe. Otherwise, how are we different from Eve?

 

[Beckworth]

Back then it was a wreath and today it's a gold medal. Those who did not receive the prize were not disqualified from the Olympics but were disqualified for the prize. No loss of salvation here.

We have to remember that this is figurative language. Paul is not talking about the “Olympics”. He’s just talking about a “race.” As a figure of speech representing our “Christian life””. For us, as Christian’s, it’s for a “crown”. We know, because of Revelation 3:10 says “IF” we are FAITHFUL. He will give us the crown of life. We don’t need to read too much into this. It’s simple really. James 1:12 says when we have “BEEN APPROVED”, we will receive the crown of life. The scriptures are very plain that receiving that “crown” is CONDITIONAL on our being FAITHFUL to God until we die (Rev. 3:10) and being approved by God. Paul is saying it is possible, if we dont discipline ourselves, we can be “disqualified” and Lose that crown. Paul says we are to RUN IN SUCH A WAY so that we can obtain it. (Verse 24) This harmonizes with 2 Tim. 2:5 which says “Anyone who competes in athletics is NOT crowned unless he competes according to the “RULES.” So it MATTERS how we live our life; it MATTERS to God whether or not we keep His commandments; TWO of His rules for this race is that we be faithful to Him all of our life; the other one us that we must abide by His rules. That means that a person will not get a crown if he sins against God and is in- repentant. That would not be playing by His rules. Then, after we have finished this “race”, we must be approved by God. It makes no sense, nor is it LOGICAL for God to make these “conditions” if it is impossible for us to lose our crown! Paul says that even he can lose his crown. Even though he has preached to others— he can be disqualified! Even Paul MUST run the race according to the “rules”.

EVERYTHING in scripture teaches that we can lose our salvation; Jesus teaches it in His parables, like the parable of the sower. And that is the whole point of the parable of the prodigal son. It’s the picture of a person who leaves his “father” who is really FATHER GOD. The boy WASTED his inheritance (heaven), he threw it away! But when he repented, his father (God) took him back with open arms. There are so many scriptures, so much evidence that God has given us. I hope you will consider this with an honest heart.

 

[Magenta]

That's correct. However, if they had no concept of right or wrong, then God could not have told Adam what He did in Genesis 2:17. How could God give a warning to someone who could not distinguish between obeying a command and disobeying a command?

They both had consciences at the time they were created, otherwise how could they have hidden from God not having a guilty conscience? All humans have a conscience (unlike animals), and conscience tells all humans what is right and what it wrong.

Their eyes were opened once they ate. (See Genesis 3:5 + 7.)
Do you not read your Bible? What you claim is not in Scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

We have to remember that this is figurative language. Paul is not talking about the “Olympics”. He’s just talking about a “race.” As a figure of speech representing our “Christian life””. For us, as Christian’s, it’s for a “crown”. We know, because of Revelation 3:10 says “IF” we are FAITHFUL. He will give us the crown of life. We don’t need to read too much into this. It’s simple really. James 1:12 says when we have “BEEN APPROVED”, we will receive the crown of life. The scriptures are very plain that receiving that “crown” is CONDITIONAL on our being FAITHFUL to God until we die (Rev. 3:10) and being approved by God.

Did you mean Revelation 2:10? If Revelation 2:10 teaches that we must be "faithful enough" (in addition) to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) then just "how faithful" would you have to be? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include any number of good works, which results in "works righteousness." The same applies to James 1:12. Only genuine believers are faithful.

I see Revelation 2:10 as an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. I don't see Jesus telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" (in addition) to having faith in Him for salvation that they will not receive eternal life. That is "salvation by works!" I do see Jesus telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there! In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY (genuine) BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death.

When I was a teenager, I temporarily attended the church of Christ with my friend and his aunt. Years later, after I received Christ through faith and was now a born-again Christian, I ran into my friend's aunt and while discussing church with her, she asked me if I had "remained faithful." Her idea of remaining faithful revolved around whether or not I still attended the church of Christ and held to all of their beliefs. When I told her that I no longer attend that church, but attend a different church now, a Baptist church, she acted very uncomfortable and implied that I have not been faithful and will not be saved.

The Bible mentions 5 different crowns that believers may receive. Do they all simply represent eternal life according to you? In Revelation 19:12, Jesus is described as having eyes that were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. What do those many crowns represent according to you?

Paul is saying it is possible, if we dont discipline ourselves, we can be “disqualified” and Lose that crown. Paul says we are to RUN IN SUCH A WAY so that we can obtain it. (Verse 24) This harmonizes with 2 Tim. 2:5 which says “Anyone who competes in athletics is NOT crowned unless he competes according to the “RULES.” So it MATTERS how we live our life; it MATTERS to God whether or not we keep His commandments; TWO of His rules for this race is that we be faithful to Him all of our life; the other one us that we must abide by His rules. That means that a person will not get a crown if he sins against God and is in- repentant. That would not be playing by His rules. Then, after we have finished this “race”, we must be approved by God. It makes no sense, nor is it LOGICAL for God to make these “conditions” if it is impossible for us to lose our crown! Paul says that even he can lose his crown. Even though he has preached to others— he can be disqualified! Even Paul MUST run the race according to the “rules”.

In context, Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18, his glorying of preaching a free gospel? There are those who take Paul to be referring to the possibility of his rejection in his personal salvation at the end of the race. The problem that I see with that interpretation is there is a difference between a prize and a gift.

A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. Yet salvation is a free gift that we freely accept. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved. Paul said disqualified for the prize. Not disqualified for the free gift of eternal life.

So according to you, eternal life is received (or maintained) based on the merits of keeping His commandments and remaining sin free? Have you successfully kept ALL of God's commandments and remained sin free? Also, how do you define "keep"? Your arguments support performance-based works salvation and not salvation by grace through faith, not works.

EVERYTHING in scripture teaches that we can lose our salvation;

I'm yet to find the specific words "lose salvation" in scripture and I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS and teach that you can lose your salvation which has always been a major red flag for me.

Jesus teaches it in His parables, like the parable of the sower.

In regard to the parable of the sower ONLY the 4th soil was referred to as good ground which represents those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Unlike the seed that fell by the wayside, on shallow, rocky ground and thorny ground which had no root, produced no fruit, was choked out and withered away. Faith without works is dead.

And that is the whole point of the parable of the prodigal son. It’s the picture of a person who leaves his “father” who is really FATHER GOD. The boy WASTED his inheritance (heaven), he threw it away! But when he repented, his father (God) took him back with open arms.

CONTEXT - All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2) People in the NOSAS camp will try to use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that believers can lose their salvation by arguing that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Yet others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course, Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found (NAS).

There are so many scriptures, so much evidence that God has given us. I hope you will consider this with an honest heart.

Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I believed in works salvation and losing salvation, and I had absolutely no assurance of salvation and was miserable! I have considered this with an honest heart. After my conversion everything changed. Now there are plenty of scriptures that "on the surface" appear to teach a loss of salvation (just like there are plenty of scriptures that "on the surface" appear to teach salvation by works) but is that what those passages of scripture really teach? After reading those scriptures in context, and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture, we see that scripture paints a different picture than works salvation (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) and losing salvation. (Psalm 37:28; John 6:39; 10:27-29; Romans 8:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; Philippians 1:6; Jude 1:1 etc..).

If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? The answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in for salvation/what you have placed your faith in for salvation. My answer would be "because you died for my sins according to the scriptures, was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures to provide for me eternal life. I trust in you alone as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation.

 

[Beckworth]

I'm going to answer this in the simplest way I can think of. Yes, it IS possible to lose salvation.


KJV Galatians 5:19-22
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Revelations also shines a similar light on the subject.

KJV Revelations 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


So correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like losing salvation IS possible, if you fall under any of these categories. And yes, repenting and asking for forgiveness is ALWAYS a good idea.

Agree! We have the example of Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8 as an example —both of loosing his salvation and what to do to regain it. Peter told him to repent and pray for forgiveness. If that’s what Simon had to do—that’s what we must do. Also.

Jesus illustrates this principle in the parable of the sower, where some people who accepted the “seed” grew for awhile but eventually died ( for various reasons) AND in the parable of the Prodigal son who LEFT his “father” (God) and threw away his inheritance (heaven) but eventually repented and CAME BACK. The picture is of God welcoming us BACK with open arms.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, it’s all about not trusting and believing God; instead she believed Satan’s lies. There is an Old Testament story that illustrates this, too. I King 13. Each time, Satan said the very opposite of what God said. God said “You will die.” Satan said, “You will NOT die.” If God says “yes”, Satan will say, “no”. That is STILL going on today. And people are still taking Satan’s words over God’s. In the garden Satan worked through a serpent; in 1 Kings 13, he worked through a prophet; he worked through Peter in Matthew 16:23. Today, Satan is still working through men—preachers, and lay men. The Bible warns many times about false teachers, false doctrines , and commandments of men. 1John 4:1 says, Do not believe every spirit but TEST” the spirits whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” What are these false prophets teaching? They are being led by Satan and preaching HIS message; you can be sure it is a false teacher if what they teach contradicts what God says in the Bible. They do not wear horns and a forked tail; many times they may wear ecclesiastical robes. Jesus called them “sheep” in wolves clothing. Matthew 7:15-16. They may look BEAUTIFUL! Jesus said Satan could turn himself into an ANGEL of light! 2 Cor. 11:13-14. Jesus says the way we can know them is by their “fruits”. That is by what they teach. But to do that, we HAVE TO KNOw WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. Otherwise, we will think they are telling the truth. Did Satan lie to Eve in the garden? Yes, He did. And Satan’s helpers today will lie to us the same way. So God says in 1 Thess. 5:21 to PROVE (test) ALL THINGS. The only way we can “test” or prove anything is by the Bible.

On a site such as this, you can read comments from many different people, expressing, many different beliefs, and many, many OPINIONS. Please do not take a man’s word for anything. Insist on “proof” from God word for what you believe. Otherwise, how are we different from Eve?

“people are still taking Satan’s words over God’”

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:1-4‬ ‭

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Their eyes were opened once they ate. (See Genesis 3:5 + 7.)
Do you not read your Bible? What you claim is not in Scripture.

Indeed when they partook of the forbidden knowledge of good and evil thier eyes were opened ….to good and evil to lust and sin ant not believing Gods word for the truth …..

we ( Adam ) did what he said would certainly destroy and bring death

“male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God sees eve even before she’s actually created as part of Adam who is one.


“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: ( notice adam didn’t give Eve life nor did pro creation but rather God created eve from and of what he had created in adam )

she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. ( after this all men even Jesus are taken from woman’s flesh and bones but only when a man and woman are one flesh dies this happen )

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7, 18, 21-

We can see Adam ( man and woman ) lose tbier rightful god given place in Eden with God because they weren’t supposed to operate knowing and determining what good and evil is but rather to just operate off from what the lord thier creator and blesser says to them as they abide with him in paradise learnkng and growing in o my holiness and righteousness , rather than bieng filled with good and evil , before ever being taught and learning righteousness from the lord listening first to him and learning about all things

it is because they were never meant ot intended to by Gods Will and design operate in our minds by that forbidden knowledge but by only trusting the lord being made in Gods image rather than being “ gods” wheras we seek to rule and govern having the knowledge of “gods “ and not men designed to only operate by what the Lord tells us

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: ( we aren’t made to have that same knowledge but to live by his judgements he speaks to us ) and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now man shall surely die having no access to the tre of life to live forever
God foreknew this would happen is the reason it was forbidden and why he reacted that way Eden would become this otherwise

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God lamented mans actions following Satan because he created us for life and love and peace and faithfulness and for family but we became enemies who lie and cheer and steal and kill and commit terribke acts of violence and betrayal…

Adam and Eve lost our rightful place with God but Jesus came to redeem and restore us and our inheritance with God

“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the beginning

“And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Beckworth]

Did you mean Revelation 2:10? If Revelation 2:10 teaches that we must be "faithful enough" (in addition) to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) then just "how faithful" would you have to be? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include any number of good works, which results in "works righteousness." The same applies to James 1:12. Only genuine believers are faithful.

I see Revelation 2:10 as an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. I don't see Jesus telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" (in addition) to having faith in Him for salvation that they will not receive eternal life. That is "salvation by works!" I do see Jesus telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there! In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY (genuine) BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death.

When I was a teenager, I temporarily attended the church of Christ with my friend and his aunt. Years later, after I received Christ through faith and was now a born-again Christian, I ran into my friend's aunt and while discussing church with her, she asked me if I had "remained faithful." Her idea of remaining faithful revolved around whether or not I still attended the church of Christ and held to all of their beliefs. When I told her that I no longer attend that church, but attend a different church now, a Baptist church, she acted very uncomfortable and implied that I have not been faithful and will not be saved.

The Bible mentions 5 different crowns that believers may receive. Do they all simply represent eternal life according to you? In Revelation 19:12, Jesus is described as having eyes that were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. What do those many crowns represent according to you?

In context, Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18, his glorying of preaching a free gospel? There are those who take Paul to be referring to the possibility of his rejection in his personal salvation at the end of the race. The problem that I see with that interpretation is there is a difference between a prize and a gift.

A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. Yet salvation is a free gift that we freely accept. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved. Paul said disqualified for the prize. Not disqualified for the free gift of eternal life.

First of all, yes, thank you, I DID MEAN Revelation 2:10. But you have “added” a word into that verse that is not there. The word “enough.” God did NOT say “if you are faithful ENOUGH.” That changes the meaning. You know, that is a trick of Satan. He only added one word to what God said, too. He said “you shall “NOT” die. Revelation 22:18-19 warns us not to ADD to His word. (Nor subtract from it.). Yes, there are more things we must do in addition to our faith. I know this because God said we are NOT saved by faith only. I will trust what God says in His word. It’s the same trick Satan pulled with Eve. He basically told her what God said wasn’t true. Then, he said the OPPOSITE of what God said, “ You shall NOT die. That’s the same thing you are doing with James 2:24. GOD says we are NOT saved by faith only. YOU say,” Yes, we ARE SAVED by faith only.” You see? Satan ALWAYS SAYS THE OPPOSITE of what God says. I know what God has said in James 2:24. Eve knew what God had said to her. If I believe YOU, instead of GOD, then I am just repeating Eve’s mistake and sin. I choose to believe God. Here’s another example. GOD says in 1 Peter 3:21, “BAPTISM SAVES US.” Here’s what YOU say, “Baptism does NOT save us.” You see? It’s the scene in the garden of Eden all over again. If God says “yes”, Satan says “no”. If God says”no”, Satan says “yes.” You are saying the OPPOSITE of what God says. This is what I know: Satan uses people ( or things) to teach his lies. In the garden of Eden he used a serpent. In 1 Kings 13, he used an old prophet, who said the OPPOSITE of what God said. And in Matthew 16:23 he even used the apostle Peter. God said, “Do not believe every spirit, but test” the spirits to see if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1
I’m not at all interested in what MEN say in trying to “explain away” the parable of the sower and the parable of the Prodigal Son. Those parables are not hard to understand nor the meanings of those parables. The explanation given in trying to “get around” their meaning is much more complicated and confusing than the simplicity of what Jesus taught.
God has made it very plain for us: Galations 5:1-4 says “YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE.”
Ephesians 2:5- Remember from where YOU HAVE FALLEN and repent.”1 Cor, 10:12- “Let him who thinks he stands take heed LEST HE FALL. Now, please answer me this: where did they FALL FROM? If they were never saved in the first place then they were already lost So WHERE DID THEY FALL FROM? GOD TOLD THE Christian’s in Ephesus they had “fallen”. He told the Christian’s at Corinth to be careful not to “fall.” FROM WHERE?? Please answer .
Not only that, WHERE DID THEY FALL TO?? If they were already lost, then where did they go when they “fell.? FELL TO WHERE?? Please answer.
Even in the Old Testament God shows us the saved can be lost. In Exodus 32:33 God plainly says that “WHOEVER SINS, I WILL BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK.” He repeats the message again in Revelation 3:5 when He says those who overcome (sin), I will NOT blot out of the book of life.” No misunderstanding that!! In Deut. 29:20 God is speaking to His chosen people Israel-His children and He tells them in verse 18 that there may be one of them whose HEART TURNS AWAY FROM GOD. Did you get that? It is possible that a child of God can TURN AWAY FROM GOD. But read on; in verse 20 God says “I will BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM UNDER HEAVEN. That harmonizes perfectly with Rev. 3:5 and Exodus 32:33. God is telling us all through His book, that 1) a child of God can turn away from God, and 2) if he does he will lose his salvation. And 3) we can LOSE OUR CROWN. Rev. 3:11 says to be careful SOMEONE CAN TAKE YOUR CROWN AWAY!! Through false teaching or false teachers would be one way. And God warns us about these in 1 John 4:1. Lamentations 5:16 says, “THE CROWN HAS FALLEN FROM OUR HEAD. Woe to us for we have sinned.”

 

[mailmandan]

I'm going to answer this in the simplest way I can think of. Yes, it IS possible to lose salvation.

KJV Galatians 5:19-22
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelations also shines a similar light on the subject.

KJV Revelations 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like losing salvation IS possible, if you fall under any of these categories. And yes, repenting and asking for forgiveness is ALWAYS a good idea.

'Descriptive' of the unrighteous, just as we see in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and in verse 11, Paul draws a contrast between the unrighteous and the righteous. "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Also notice in Galatians 5:19-21 that those who practice such things (sins) will not not inherit the kingdom of God. Compare that with 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin..

*Hermeneutics*

 

[posthuman]

That's correct. However, if they had no concept of right or wrong, then God could not have told Adam what He did in Genesis 2:17. How could God give a warning to someone who could not distinguish between obeying a command and disobeying a command?

They both had consciences at the time they were created, otherwise how could they have hidden from God not having a guilty conscience? All humans have a conscience (unlike animals), and conscience tells all humans what is right and what it wrong.

not sure i agree other animals have no conscience, lol, ever see how a dog who has done something wrong acts, when its master comes home?

but unlike birds and chipmunks, mankind has many reasons to be ashamed.

 

[posthuman]

you're contradicting yourself:

The difference is that we have an inner wrongness Adam, Eve and Christ never had to deal with.

you say Adam had no evil inside his heart until after he sinned...

Adam wanted to eat the fruit and Eve gave him the excuse he needed to justify his own evil desire and take the fruit and eat.

... then you say he was evil from the beginning, just waiting for an "excuse" to sin.

 

[posthuman]

As far as your theory about it only applying to Adam? Guess you forgot.

Genesis 2:24
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

What applied to Adam applied to Eve.

this has nothing to do with what God said to the company of angels witnessing the events in Genesis 3.

it's not a "theory" that God spoke of Adam. it's the scripture.




note that the verb "become" is singular case. not speaking of both of them.

note that YHVH says "ha-Adam" - - that is Adam's name. "adam" without the "ha-" means mankind, but the text specifically says the particular man, named Adam.
again it is singular case, not referring to the man and the woman, or referring to mankind in general - the grammar is inescapable and incontrovertible.

figure out why.

 

[posthuman]

God kept the way to the tree of life.
He saves.

God clothed Adam and Eve, shedding blood to make garments for them by His own hand. He took away what they had made with their own hands, it being insufficient, and gave them the work of His own hand.
He saves.

and God prevented Adam and Eve from being able to eat of the tree of life until Messiah should come, because if they did they would be eternally in their state of sin.
God saves.

God preached to them the gospel, atoned for their sin, covered them, made the way to eternal life secure, and made it impossible for them to be eternally damned.
He saves, to the uttermost.

the doctrine of eternal security is right here in Genesis 3

 

[posthuman]

Agree! We have the example of Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8 as an example —both of loosing his salvation and what to do to regain it. Peter told him to repent and pray for forgiveness. If that’s what Simon had to do—that’s what we must do. Also.

hi Beckworth!

are you still saved today?

 

[cv5]

It was about rejecting the truth. God could have said "don't pick your nose" and Adam would still have fallen if he disobeyed the

That is both insane, and completely unbiblical.

Furthermore, I strongly suspect that Adam, like God, could not be successfully tempted by Satan (Gen 1:26). And I also suspect that Satan tried many times to deceive Adam and failed every time. So Satan regrouped and launched his plan of attack upon the woman. Whom he did deceive ****TEMPORARILY****! Only to have the Woman CONFESS HER SIN of unbelief at the subsequent trial AND RECEIVE FORGIVENESS AND AQUITTAL.

Adam in effect DEFEATED Satan in a roundabout way (ultimately by the work of the Last Adam yet to come).......in my humble opinion. A fact that God knew in advance of course.

And all of these intrigues and dramas......are part of God's plan of salvation made before the foundation of the world. In my humble opinion.

1Ti 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

===================================================================================

You are DEVASTATINGLY wrong about Genesis chapter 3.
I urge you to hear the truth of the matter. It will only take perhaps 10 or 20 hours of your time.

Adam And Eve... What really happened?

1st Adam vs. The 2nd Adam. They're more alike than you might think

Adam, Eve & Satan. Do you really think you know this story?

Deep Teaching On Adam & Eve. This is the stuff you're not supposed to hear

Did Adam Blame Eve? It's not what you may have thought

Eve Is Dying Right In Front of Adam. If you were Adam, what would you do?

Satan, Why Did You Pick A Snake? Would Adam have been fooled by a snake?

Why A Tree Of Death? What caused the Tree of Death to be put in the garden of Eden?

Genesis 2 and 3... NOT Seeker Sensitive! That's why most churches don't teach this

 

[cv5]

Genez said:
Adam believed that when he ate the fruit that he would become like the Lord..
Did he not?

@cv5 said:
No, he definitely DID NOT believe that.
On the contrary, Adam sweat great drops of blood in the garden agonizing over his deliberate (NOT DECEIVED per 1 Tim 2:14) FREE WILL choice to be SEPARATED (aka ***die***) from his God in a calculated gambit to SAVE his bride the Woman.

Which of course is why Adam is a type of Christ.

Get the picture?

 

[cv5]

@sawdust
To continue.....

https://christianchat.com/threads/d...en-in-the-book-of-life-or.214168/post-5323463

"The issue is actually SEPARATION.

By God's definition, death is SEPARATION from Him. Eternal death = eternal separation.

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
Thayer Definition:
1) a separating, sundering, separation

Adam did not keel over when he ate the fruit. But he did willingly decide to DIE aka SEPARATE from his God to save the woman.

The first Adam in the first garden sweat great drops of blood (in effect) agonizing over his FREE WILL decision to DIE (give up his life of sweet loving harmony and perfect fellowship with his God, becoming a sinner) to take responsibility of the sin of his bride to save his bride.

The last Adam in the olive garden sweat great drops of blood agonizing over his FREE WILL decision to DIE (give up his life of sweet loving harmony and perfect fellowship with his God, becoming sin for us) to take responsibility of the sin of His Bride to save His Bride."

 

[cv5]

God kept the way to the tree of life.
He saves.

God clothed Adam and Eve, shedding blood to make garments for them by His own hand. He took away what they had made with their own hands, it being insufficient, and gave them the work of His own hand.
He saves.

and God prevented Adam and Eve from being able to eat of the tree of life until Messiah should come, because if they did they would be eternally in their state of sin.
God saves.

God preached to them the gospel, atoned for their sin, covered them, made the way to eternal life secure, and made it impossible for them to be eternally damned.
He saves, to the uttermost.

the doctrine of eternal security is right here in Genesis 3

Totally agree.
The truths of Genesis 3 are:
Redemption, salvation and victory in Christ Jesus.