The truth about the Rapture

[Randy4u2c]

I Cor 15:39-55 explains that we have two bodies, a flesh body (terrestrial) and a spiritual body (celestial). At the last trump (the 7th), we who are alive and remain will be changed into our spiritual body as Christ returns to earth. (I Cor 15:51-52). In I Thes 4:13-17, starting with verse 13, it tells us not to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep believing in the Lord, for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so will God bring with him those that died believing in him. If you believe that Christ rose, you must also believe that the dead have already risen with him and not laying in some hole in the ground. Our God is the God of the living, not the dead.

It goes on to say in verses 15-17 that we who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep (because they are already there), and that the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God (the 7th or last trump), and the dead in Christ will rise first (again, already there). Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together (gathered) with them in the clouds (cloud or group of saints, not atmosphere), as Christ returns with an army of saints, and then will meet the Lord in the air. Not atmosphere but the spiritual body we are changed into at his coming. (I Cor 15:51-52)

Beware for II Thes 2:1-4 warns you that a great falling away will happen because the son of perdition (Satan) will come to earth claiming to be God and will deceive the world into worshipping him as God, because they were never taught that he comes first, before Jesus, at the 6th trump, claiming to be him. Our gathering to Christ is AFTER the appearance of Antichrist (Satan). God's elect will make the stand against Satan to expose his lies with the Holy Sprit speaking through them. (Mark 13:9-11) We don't have to fly away, Christ is coming to earth to set up his millennium temple.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hi Randy4u2c , I guess my Post #18 (in a different thread) belongs here also... since you posted the same thing here that you posted in that thread (your Post #16 there):


--Post #18 - https://christianchat.com/threads/will-there-be-a-rapture.216189/post-5357796 [which is a response (mine) to the content of your Post #16 of that thread--same content here in this OP]

 

[timf]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word for falling away is apostatis and can also mean a departure from a standing (this might also mean rapture).

 

[ResidentAlien]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word for falling away is apostatis and can also mean a departure from a standing (this might also mean rapture).

So the rapture can't come unless the rapture comes first?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word for falling away is apostatis and can also mean a departure from a standing (this might also mean rapture).

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To 'Chat'! This "Departure [ rapture ] from
the earth" to start "The Day Of Christ" makes the most sense; good pre-trib Rightly
Divided study is here:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So the rapture can't come unless the rapture comes first?

That's incorrect reasoning (i.e. not what it would be saying).

Rather, "the day of the Lord" [Trib] will not be present if not shall have come "the Rapture [The Departure] FIRST"


(notice how that differs from what you suggested it would convey?)






IOW, Verse 3a's reference (to "that day") reaches back to VERSE 2b's Subject... not grammatically skipping back over and past v.2 (ignoring it) to grab verse 1 (to define "that day" v.3a).

They are DISTINCT things (not equivalents)!

[V.1 = our Rapture (an EVENT); v.2's false claim = "the day of the Lord" / TRIB... a TIME-PERIOD]



This is the proper grammar (not what you've suggested it would spell out instead).







Paul is BRINGING the Subject of "our Rapture" (verse 1) to BEAR on the Subject of the "false claim" in verse 2, "[purporting] that the Day of the Lord [the Trib] IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]".





So, verses 1 and 2 ALONE already show the fact (verse 3+ is only elaborating further).

Meaning, verses 1 and 2 are sufficient (showing pre-trib Rapture is indeed what Paul is conveying in this text).





[But Paul repeats this sequence 3x in this passage, for good measure. ]

 

[Nehemiah6]

Our gathering to Christ is AFTER the appearance of Antichrist (Satan).

If you have already been beheaded by the Antichrist for your faith, you will not be part of any gathering. And there is no need to make lengthy posts simply to mislead others. We need to clearly understand these things before posting. This post is definitely NOT about the "truth" of the Rapture.

 

[Blade]

"Beware for II Thes 2:1-4 warns you that a great falling away ". We should also remember that word "falling away" was written in the word of God as "departure" which is another meaning of that word. So until the departure happens.. until the falling away happens. This many time seems to be left out. This is one of those verses we truly don't know for sure of. So He is coming He told us.. if He goes He will come again to take us get us receive us unto Him self so where He is we will be. Now it is not written where we are He will be. Where is He? He said this to the 12.. He never lied. So He is coming and where He is we will be. I don't twist this or add to it. There is no pre mid post verse you have to in each case leave out verses to make your personal view stick.

Now since i cannot find one of them for fact.. I live and watch for Him now. I will never miss Him. Today is all I have.. so I live today for him now. I prepare for tomorrow but none of us were promised tomorrow. Some talk about a time in which they may never see yet do not live watch for Him today. A choice

 

[Pilgrimshope]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word for falling away is apostatis and can also mean a departure from a standing (this might also mean rapture).

notice anything about the wicked one and what he is doing and what his intent and purpose is ? Why he appeared ?

“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:8-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Randy4u2c]

Falling away? From who? To who? Many will fall away from worshipping the true God because an imposter (Satan) will come first claiming to be him.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"Beware for II Thes 2:1-4 warns you that a great falling away ". We should also remember that word "falling away" was written in the word of God as "departure" which is another meaning of that word. So until the departure happens.. until the falling away happens.

Right.

Greek has a word for "to fall"... that Greek word is "pipto".
Paul could have easily used that word here if that's what he intended to convey.

But he didn't use that word here.






[and that's besides the fact that "great" is not used in this verse either. lol. Note, I realize you are quoting another poster]







____________

[The first seven English translations translated the word in this verse as "departure" / "a departing" (it's a noun... with the definite article 'the')... before the kjv changed it to "a falling away"]

 

[Randy4u2c]

If you have already been beheaded by the Antichrist for your faith, you will not be part of any gathering. And there is no need to make lengthy posts simply to mislead others. We need to clearly understand these things before posting. This post is definitely NOT about the "truth" of the Rapture.

How is it that you think you will be beheaded for testifying against Antichrist (Luke 21:12-18) when it is written in Luke 21:18 "not a hair of your head should be lost"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

How is it that you think you will be beheaded for testifying against Antichrist (Luke 21:12-18) when it is written in Luke 21:18 "not a hair of your head should be lost"

You are quoting from a section which is covering the events surrounding 70ad (Luke 21:12-24a,b), all of which (per v.12) are said to take place "BEFORE ALL THESE [before all these 'beginning of birth pangs' that vv.8-11 had just spelled out--which BoBPs are EQUIVALENT the SEALS at the START of the future, specific, LIMITED time-period we call the 7-yr Trib]"








[that said, I don't happen to agree with Neh6 on this point, in that, I do not believe that 100% of the saints (who come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs--FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will be KILLED / MARTYRED / BEHEADED... SOME will be "still alive" at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, and thus will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies... (Dan12:12 being just one example of this)]

 

[Nehemiah6]

How is it that you think you will be beheaded for testifying against Antichrist (Luke 21:12-18) when it is written in Luke 21:18 "not a hair of your head should be lost"

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

How did you miss the bolded and underlined words? You said this: "Our gathering to Christ is AFTER the appearance of Antichrist (Satan)." The appearance of the Antichrist will immediately result in the reign of the Antichrist, and the demand to take the Mark. There is no hiatus. See Revelation 13.

So you are either clueless about this subject, or have some bizarre ideas. If the whole Church is present during the Antichrist's reign, every single Christian will be beheaded (not just the Tribulation saints which come after the Church is raptured).

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

How did you miss the bolded and underlined words? You said this: "Our gathering to Christ is AFTER the appearance of Antichrist (Satan)." The appearance of the Antichrist will immediately result in the reign of the Antichrist, and the demand to take the Mark. There is no hiatus. See Revelation 13.

So you are either clueless about this subject, or have some bizarre ideas. If the whole Church is present during the Antichrist's reign, every single Christian will be beheaded (not just the Tribulation saints which come after the Church is raptured).

I agree about the beheadings, but I don't see how that would exclude these Christians from being gathered. Jesus gathers all of us AFTER the tribulation where the dead shall rise first including theses beheaded Christians.


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[Nehemiah6]

I agree about the beheadings, but I don't see how that would exclude these Christians from being gathered. Jesus gathers all of us AFTER the tribulation where the dead shall rise first including theses beheaded Christians.

The "dead shall rise first" refers to those who had already died before the Rapture (which is for living Christians).

How could you be in a gathering up of living Christians is you were dead? And if the whole Church was dead, why would there even be a Rapture? It is the Second Coming of Christ AFTER the Tribulation that takes place, but it is His coming for His Bride at the Rapture that is BEFORE the Tribulation. Two entirely different events.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

The "dead shall rise first" refers to those who had already died before the Rapture (which is for living Christians).

How could you be in a gathering up of living Christians is you were dead? And if the whole Church was dead, why would there even be a Rapture? It is the Second Coming of Christ AFTER the Tribulation that takes place, but it is His coming for His Bride at the Rapture that is BEFORE the Tribulation. Two entirely different events.

They are one and the same event which happens after the great tribulation. We've been through this song and dance before so I'm not going to argue with you because that would be a waste of time.

When the antichrist is revealed and you're still here, remember that Jesus said to endure to the end. You can do that with the help of the Holy Spirit. This is important because when all this happens, Jesus said it will be the very worst time in history. Without clinging to God and learning to endure to the end, a Christian can fall away and be part of the great apostasy.

I don't know when the great tribulation starts, but I think it might happen sooner than 18 years being predicted in the other thread. So please everyone be ready for this spiritually.


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[TheDivineWatermark]

I agree about the beheadings, but I don't see how that would exclude these Christians from being gathered. Jesus gathers all of us AFTER the tribulation where the dead shall rise first including theses beheaded Christians.

I want to ask this because I desire to come to a clearer understanding of your viewpoint, I hope you don't mind.

If (according to your scenario) ALL saints of all times are "raptured [thus 'glorified']" at the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19 time-slot), then WHO would you say is being granted entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age [referred to in many places throughout the Gospels] commencing upon His "RETURN" there, to the earth?








[one sample text: Lk12:36-37,38,40-42,44-48 (see also its parallel passage in the Olivet Discourse), where v.36 states, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" in this passage / context) ... THEN "the meal [G347; see this Grk word in Mt8:11 also]"--So, here it is "the faithful and wise servant" (and his destination) in contrast to one being the opposite of this (and his destination, not being the same as the other); Note: I do not believe the word "servant" is the equivalent of "saved [person]" as many suggest (for example, those holding to the "Millennial Exclusion Theory," i.e. that "saved" persons will/can be "excluded" from the MK age--I disagree with that notion, and believe that false idea is based on a MISAPPLICATION of certain passages, such as these)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Oh, and a follow-up question if I may:

how do you make sense of the text in Rev20:8 (and context), where it says, "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" (at the end of the MK age / 1000 yrs) ?

... if my question here (in view of the above post) makes sense? lol

 

[Nehemiah6]

They are one and the same event which happens after the great tribulation.

Forget about the Tribulation. Everyone in the Church would have been beheaded by the Antichrist during the Tribulation/Great Tribulation. You either take the Mark or lose your head.
I have already dealt with this. So that is an absurd notion.

Evidently you need to study both the Rapture and the Second Coming properly. They are DEFINITELY NOT the same event. That too would be absurd.

If the Church saints are RISING to Heaven at the Second Coming then who is Christ bringing with Him from Heaven? And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev 19:14). Who are within these "armies"? Those who are dressed in linen, white, and clean. And that can only apply to the redeemed saints.

So according to your notion the raptured saints will be immediately doing an about face for the Second Coming. But here's the catch. The Marriage of the Lamb has just taken place when all the saints were in Heaven. So you have a phantom Rapture at the Second Coming. Give it up.