Loss of salvation???

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PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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That is not a parable of God taking back His grace but of grace being rejected and the consequences that flow from it. The Cross stands for the forgiveness of all men's sins forever, yet those who end up in the lake of fire are not there because God took back the effectiveness of the Cross for some but because they rejected the gift freely given by grace.

Mercy flows from grace. The unforgiving servant was lacking mercy because he rejected grace.
The unforgiving servant clearly did not reject grace but accepted grace. He begged for undeserved mercy of delaying payment, but was given the superabundant grace of having his debt completely forgiven, and left the presence of the master free of his debt. And he did not deserve that mercy.

He failed to extend the same grace to another who, like him, begged for the mercy of delaying payment. It was foir this inequity that he had his debt reinstated. I don't see how you can reasonably justify overruling the obvious dynamics of the parable, and assert that those in hell are there because they rejected grace, rather than because they refused to show like sacrificial grace. and so God took back the effectiveness of the cross in their cases.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Exactly right. It's who first, not some what.
who leads to what

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“ Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said ( who ) unto them, Go ye into all the world, ( where ) and preach the gospel ( what ) to every creature. ( to whom )

(binary result for every creature based on tbier response )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believers not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Gideon300

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Mar 18, 2021
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Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!
It depends on what you mean by "salvation". A true Christian is one who is born again. There are many who own the name "Christian" who are still dead in trespass and sin.

If someone is born again, it means that they are spiritually alive. In order for that person to be "unborn again", it means that God would have to condemn Himself. However, a person can certainly disqualify himself from God's kingdom, which is a terrible place to be in. They will spend an eternity in regret that they valued something more in this life than the blessings of God in the next.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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The unforgiving servant clearly did not reject grace but accepted grace. He begged for undeserved mercy of delaying payment, but was given the superabundant grace of having his debt completely forgiven, and left the presence of the master free of his debt. And he did not deserve that mercy.

He failed to extend the same grace to another who, like him, begged for the mercy of delaying payment. It was foir this inequity that he had his debt reinstated. I don't see how you can reasonably justify overruling the obvious dynamics of the parable, and assert that those in hell are there because they rejected grace, rather than because they refused to show like sacrificial grace. and so God took back the effectiveness of the cross in their cases.
exactly the parable is teaching rhe principle of true mercy he repeatedly taught that is received and then extended outwardly to everyone else before he died for us all

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you;

good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t think people realize this is a teaching full of grace and truth. Gods only son teaching believers about their Father who believe in him.

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭



It came down to this lesson and answer to peters question

“The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. ( the cross )


…“Then the master called the servant in. ( judgement day )‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:27, 32-35‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

sawdust

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Feb 12, 2024
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Darwin, NT
how do you know obedience isn't evil?

how do you know it isn't good to die?
Now you're sounding like someone else who was in the Garden. :rolleyes:

You learn good by doing what God says. You learn evil by not doing what He says but He always ensures you know the truth of the matter before you need to decide.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
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Darwin, NT
The unforgiving servant clearly did not reject grace but accepted grace.
If he had accepted grace he would have had the power to forgive. He was like a criminal who's only sorry they get caught.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Grace applied to our lives is how we forgive others.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Now you're sounding like someone else who was in the Garden. :rolleyes:

You learn good by doing what God says. You learn evil by not doing what He says but He always ensures you know the truth of the matter before you need to decide.
how do you know it's good to do what He says?

have you been eating of a forbidden tree?
is that how you found out God is good and obedience to Him is good?

is your sin really the only reason you have any concept of good at all?
do you honestly think that makes any sense?

how can you be deceived about yapdvkr if yapdvkr is complete nonsense to you?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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How did you know to ask those questions?
How do you know your questions were not evil in motivation?
i know to ask them because the idea that Adam and his wife were created as unthinking idiots without any concept of right or wrong is preposterous nonsense that does not fit the text.

i know to ask these questions because people who believe that can't answer them.

i know that exposing flaws in incorrect belief is good because it leads one to knowledge of the Truth - and He is Truth, and He is good.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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It depends on what you mean by "salvation". A true Christian is one who is born again. There are many who own the name "Christian" who are still dead in trespass and sin.

If someone is born again, it means that they are spiritually alive. In order for that person to be "unborn again", it means that God would have to condemn Himself. However, a person can certainly disqualify himself from God's kingdom, which is a terrible place to be in. They will spend an eternity in regret that they valued something more in this life than the blessings of God in the next.
How can you disqualify yourself. When in reality all of us are disqualified int he first place. And the reason we need “born again” by God
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Adam didn't trust God to come up with a remedy for Eve's sin, so did not consult with God before following suit. Had he trusted God, he would have consulted Him first. His distrust of God led him to think of a strategy for himself without consulting God first. Every sin is the result of not trusting God in our moments of considering, deciding and acting.
Is this conjecture or you see something in scripture that suggests this?
 

Cameron143

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Belief in facts and / or false facts is not enough consistently to empower us to avoid sin. Communion with God through trust in Him connects us to the power to walk in grace and righteousness. That power is Him, the one we are connecting to by faith, not some truth claim that we profess confidence in but which is not Him.
Certainly the power to overcome sin rests in our connection to Christ in us, but that wasn't my point. People do things all the time that bring themselves harm even knowing it will bring them harm.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Adam was not deceived.

if they had no concept of good or evil they had no basis to obey or believe God.
Okay, to each, as each believes, hoping you do believe God loves you too, and you believe in the resurrection for you too in the risen Son that saves, the foundation. Father layed
whether Adam the first knew or not knew, is a distraction of the entire truth, God loves us all, even after the fall, however it wholly happened, it happened for Sonto come Genesis 3:15-16
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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if He does not save our flesh there is no resurrection and we are the most miserable of people, with no hope.

Romans 8:11​
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[/QUOTE
yes true read Romans 8 the entire chapter in context. Are you presently dead, do you reckon you as dead yet, Romans 6:12

‘be dead to self, first birth to be alive to God in Gods spirit and truth, John 4:23-24 this is a soulful matter, all flesh dies in the first Adam
no flesh can please God, but Son’s that did it, Romans 8
‘be willingly dead to first birth to see second birth.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Certainly the power to overcome sin rests in our connection to Christ in us, but that wasn't my point. People do things all the time that bring themselves harm even knowing it will bring them harm.

“People do things all the time that bring themselves harm even knowing it will bring them harm.”

“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, ( 1) God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


(2) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

there are now two possibilities to believe about the fruit now two versions of facts about the tree one came from Gods lips the other from the serpents lips it forces a choice do I believe what God said or what the serpent said

1 as God said “ it will surely kill us we must not eat it “

2 or as the serpent said “ it will not hurt us it’s good for us it will make us like gods”

Whichever word is accepted and believed will govern thier actions what did she believe after the serpent spoke ?

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, ( god said it was certain death if they ate it but she sees it as good food ) and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, ( it will also make them wise like gods they perceive like the serpent said and so thier actions follow )

she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:2-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats true throughout the Bible Gods always telling man how to live satans always trying to deceive us after we hear the truth
 

Cameron143

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“People do things all the time that bring themselves harm even knowing it will bring them harm.”

“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, ( 1) God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


(2) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

there are now two possibilities to believe about the fruit now two versions of facts about the tree one came from Gods lips the other from the serpents lips it forces a choice do I believe what God said or what the serpent said

1 as God said “ it will surely kill us we must not eat it “

2 or as the serpent said “ it will not hurt us it’s good for us it will make us like gods”

Whichever word is accepted and believed will govern thier actions what did she believe after the serpent spoke ?

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, ( god said it was certain death if they ate it but she sees it as good food ) and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, ( it will also make them wise like gods they perceive like the serpent said and so thier actions follow )

she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:2-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats true throughout the Bible Gods always telling man how to live satans always trying to deceive us after we hear the truth
There were actually 3 versions at that point. Eve had already added to the word of God by saying we shall not eat OR TOUCH. And while I find no objection with what you shared, I'm not sure what in my post you are addressing
 

Pilgrimshope

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There were actually 3 versions at that point. Eve had already added to the word of God by saying we shall not eat OR TOUCH. And while I find no objection with what you shared, I'm not sure what in my post you are addressing
That doesn’t change the facts about the fruit it’s either certain death as god said 1 or it isn’t like Satan said 2

Her not touching the fruit we do t know if eve added that or if Adam told her but it was wise not to touch the fruit if you don’t touch it you can’t eat it was fear and wisdom keeping them from it until they were taught a false doctrine that removes the fear of death
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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There were actually 3 versions at that point. Eve had already added to the word of God by saying we shall not eat OR TOUCH. And while I find no objection with what you shared, I'm not sure what in my post you are addressing
The fact that they didn’t believe it would hurt them like god said instead they followed what Satan said …

it wasn’t a suicide pact where they said “ we believe it will kill us but we’re gonna eat it anyways

when they believed it was death they didn’t eat . when Satan convinced the. It was good to eat they ate

show they look at the fruit shows what they believe

“And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

( Eve responds with that she believes )

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭

satan tells her a false doctrine about the fruit to change her belief about the fruit

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Now how she perceives the fruit what she thinks about it now Matches satans word and not Gods her belief about the deadly fruit Changed

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food,( her mind has changed from its deadly dont touch it or eat it you’ll die ) and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s not true about the fruit what god said about it is true thier faith has been altered and corrupted by a false doctrine
 

Cameron143

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The fact that they didn’t believe it would hurt them like god said instead they followed what Satan said …

it wasn’t a suicide pact where they said “ we believe it will kill us but we’re gonna eat it anyways

when they believed it was death they didn’t eat . when Satan convinced the. It was good to eat they ate

show they look at the fruit shows what they believe

“And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

( Eve responds with that she believes )

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭

satan tells her a false doctrine about the fruit to change her belief about the fruit

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Now how she perceives the fruit what she thinks about it now Matches satans word and not Gods her belief about the deadly fruit Changed

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food,( her mind has changed from its deadly dont touch it or eat it you’ll die ) and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s not true about the fruit what god said about it is true thier faith has been altered and corrupted by a false doctrine
What you shared is only true of those who are deceived. The Bible says Adam wasn't deceived. He ate knowing the consequences according to God would come.
 

Pilgrimshope

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What you shared is only true of those who are deceived. The Bible says Adam wasn't deceived. He ate knowing the consequences according to God would come.
You’re speaking of Paul’s argument why he doesn’t allow women to speak and tbat women Remain in silence and full subjection ?

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

should we not look more into this he appears to be saying it’s the woman’s fault not the man’s the man didn’t transgress the woman did…

therefore no female should have the right to speak but to be silent and she must be in full subjection to the man , but she can still be saved through painful childbirth if she continues in verity and faith “

This doesn’t seem like a sound thing to conclude it seems Paul’s talking about genesis three and tbe curses of sin let’s look at what happened in sequence

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27‬ ‭

before eve is made

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After eve is made

“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The serpent asks her about what God said she answers in the affirmative she knows and thinks it she is afraid to eat the fruit because of what god said.

“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

eve knows too is my point she answered correctly that’s what she thinks about the fruit and until now the truth is keeping them safe.

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: ( another doctrine emerges about the fruit opposes to Gods word ) for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

She thought it was fine to eat what God told them was poison then she pursuaded her husband who also knew God commandment

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, ( eve spread the lie they both knew the truth from God they both heard the lie eve from the serpent and she ate and Adam from eve and he ate )

and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:

cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬


eve was the one who first ate the fruit is pauls point eve spread the first false doctrine that’s why he’s saying he doesn’t allow women to teach because she was deceived and spread the lie . the serpent spoke to her and she ate the fruit. for this she was cursed to become subject to the man before this they were partners

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; ( saved in childbearing ) and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”( she was made subject to the man because of her transgression )
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

pauls talking about that curse placed on eve.

what you are saying or that verse doesn’t change what I’m saying. eve hesrd the serpent then her belief about the fruit changed from what God said …..that’s what happened to cause the problem is my point . Then eve spoke to adam and he ate the fruit too …..

false doctrine does it to people it’s the same with the gospel. If we accept what God said we will live , if we let the serpent snatch it away we will die
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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You’re speaking of Paul’s argument why he doesn’t allow women to speak and tbat women Remain in silence and full subjection ?

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

should we not look more into this he appears to be saying it’s the woman’s fault not the man’s the man didn’t transgress the woman did…

therefore no female should have the right to speak but to be silent and she must be in full subjection to the man , but she can still be saved through painful childbirth if she continues in verity and faith “

This doesn’t seem like a sound thing to conclude it seems Paul’s talking about genesis three and tbe curses of sin let’s look at what happened in sequence

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27‬ ‭

before eve is made

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After eve is made

“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The serpent asks her about what God said she answers in the affirmative she knows and thinks it she is afraid to eat the fruit because of what god said.

“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

eve knows too is my point she answered correctly that’s what she thinks about the fruit and until now the truth is keeping them safe.

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: ( another doctrine emerges about the fruit opposes to Gods word ) for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

She thought it was fine to eat what God told them was poison then she pursuaded her husband who also knew God commandment

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, ( eve spread the lie they both knew the truth from God they both heard the lie eve from the serpent and she ate and Adam from eve and he ate )

and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:

cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬


eve was the one who first ate the fruit is pauls point eve spread the first false doctrine that’s why he’s saying he doesn’t allow women to teach because she was deceived and spread the lie . the serpent spoke to her and she ate the fruit. for this she was cursed to become subject to the man before this they were partners

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; ( saved in childbearing ) and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”( she was made subject to the man because of her transgression )
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

pauls talking about that curse placed on eve.

what you are saying or that verse doesn’t change what I’m saying. eve hesrd the serpent then her belief about the fruit changed from what God said …..that’s what happened to cause the problem is my point . Then eve spoke to adam and he ate the fruit too …..

false doctrine does it to people it’s the same with the gospel. If we accept what God said we will live , if we let the serpent snatch it away we will die
I'm speaking about 1 Timothy 2:14.