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[NightTwister]

Why won't you answer my question?

Because you aren't a person who operates on a good faith basis.

 

[PaulThomson]

Because you aren't a person who operates on a good faith basis.

I would say I'm one of a few here who try to answer questions straightforwardly and candidly. Why do you think I don't operate in good faith. Do you have an example?

It's a simple"Yes... but... ", or "No... but... " question.

Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Is that what Calvinism teaches, or is it not?

 

[NightTwister]

I would say I'm one of a few here who try to answer questions straightforwardly and candidly. Why do you think I don't operate in good faith. Do you have an example?

It's a simple"Yes... but... ", or "No... but... " question.

Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Is that what Calvinism teaches, or is it not?

I already replied. Posting it again won't change my reply.

 

[PaulThomson]

I already replied. Posting it again won't change my reply.

Your reply to
PaulThomson said:
Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Was

NightTwister said:
You don't have to understand what I believe, but you don't get to misrepresent it without getting called out for it.

That is not an answer to the question. The not-in-good-faith interlocutor here appears to be you.

 

[Rufus]

I was reciting what you believe, not what I believe. Your pronouncements on the nature of God are riddled with contradictions which you attempt to paper over with a 3m x 3m poster that says "Of course our description of God appears contradictory. He is so completely other to us that our logic cannot comprehend him. Humble yourselves and just accept that the contradictions are true."

No contradictions at all. God created man "upright", as Solomon said, was created "very good" as Genesis said and, yes, God decreed the Fall that Adam subsequently felt genuine guilt over. So stuff all that into you hash pipe and puff on it.

 

[Rufus]

No Christian here who has continued reforming since 1559, has claimed that in scripture "all" always means "absolutely all" in every context. You are flailing at a straw man you yourself created.

What does "absolutely all" mean: in the or distributive sense? And EG kept insisting that "world" in Jn 3:16 CAN only mean that. But if context determines proper interpretation, as you claim, then a universal or distributive understanding would create more than a few contradictions in the bible, since God's love is conditional in nature and he hates sinners as well as their sin. So, what sayest thou, Mr. Sudden Proponent of Context?

 

[Rufus]

PaulThomson said:
Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?



Why won't you answer my question? Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Is that what Calvinism teaches, or is it not?[/QUOTE]

That's a half truth! At the same time Calvinists understand that God is not author of sin or forces anyone to sin. And scripture bears this truth out in various places. Again, Adam felt genuine guilt over HIS sin that HE committed and that God "permitted" to happen. Likewise, Judas as well and he was even possessed by the devil himself, yet Judas KNEW he was guilty. Then we have Joseph's brothers do evil things to him that God decreed -- yet, they knew they were guilty of their sins because they lied to Jacob about what happened to their brother, etc.

 

[NightTwister]

The not-in-good-faith interlocutor here appears to be you.

I based my response on my history of discussions with you. Probably best to just let this go. I certainly am.

 

[PaulThomson]

I already replied. Posting it again won't change my reply.

Your reply to

Was

You don't have to understand what I believe, but you don't get to misrepresent it without getting called out for it.

I based my response on my history of discussions with you. Probably best to just let this go. I certainly am.

A nebulous slur and then running. Is that the idea of good-faith interaction God predetermined from all eternity for you to have for His greatest glory?

 

[NightTwister]

Your reply to

Was

You don't have to understand what I believe, but you don't get to misrepresent it without getting called out for it.
A nebulous slur and then running. Is that the idea of good-faith interaction God predetermined from all eternity for you to have for His greatest glory?

Responding to a "nebulous slur" (it wasn't) with a nebulous slur? Exactly what I expected from you. You prove my point. Have a great Day!

 

[PaulThomson]

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Today at 9:44 AM
#741
PaulThomson said:
Why won't you answer my question?
Because you aren't a person who operates on a good faith basis.
You can stop pretending that it all depends on you. For it's not how much you love, as much as how much He loves you. -- The Way of Wisdom, Michael Card
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PaulThomson
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Today at 9:47 AM
#742
NightTwister said:
Because you aren't a person who operates on a good faith basis.
I would say I'm one of a few here who try to answer questions straightforwardly and candidly. Why do you think I don't operate in good faith. Do you have an example?

It's a simple"Yes... but... ", or "No... but... " question.

Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Is that what Calvinism teaches, or is it not?
ReplyReport
NightTwister
NightTwister
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Today at 9:55 AM
#743
PaulThomson said:
I would say I'm one of a few here who try to answer questions straightforwardly and candidly. Why do you think I don't operate in good faith. Do you have an example?

It's a simple"Yes... but... ", or "No... but... " question.

Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Is that what Calvinism teaches, or is it not?
Click to expand...I already replied. Posting it again won't change my reply.
You can stop pretending that it all depends on you. For it's not how much you love, as much as how much He loves you. -- The Way of Wisdom, Michael Card
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PaulThomson
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Today at 12:53 PM
#744
NightTwister said:
I already replied. Posting it again won't change my reply.
Your reply to
PaulThomson said:
Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Was

NightTwister said:
You don't have to understand what I believe, but you don't get to misrepresent it without getting called out for it.

That is not an answer to the question. The not-in-good-faith interlocutor here appears to be you.
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Rufus
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Today at 6:01 PM
#745
PaulThomson said:
I was reciting what you believe, not what I believe. Your pronouncements on the nature of God are riddled with contradictions which you attempt to paper over with a 3m x 3m poster that says "Of course our description of God appears contradictory. He is so completely other to us that our logic cannot comprehend him. Humble yourselves and just accept that the contradictions are true."
No contradictions at all. God created man "upright", as Solomon said, was created "very good" as Genesis said and, yes, God decreed the Fall that Adam subsequently felt genuine guilt over. So stuff all that into you hash pipe and puff on it.
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Rufus
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Today at 6:10 PM
#746
PaulThomson said:
No Christian here who has continued reforming since 1559, has claimed that in scripture "all" always means "absolutely all" in every context. You are flailing at a straw man you yourself created.
What does "absolutely all" mean: in the or distributive sense? And EG kept insisting that "world" in Jn 3:16 CAN only mean that. But if context determines proper interpretation, as you claim, then a universal or distributive understanding would create more than a few contradictions in the bible, since God's love is conditional in nature and he hates sinners as well as their sin. So, what sayest thou, Mr. Sudden Proponent of Context?
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Rufus
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Today at 6:18 PM
#747
PaulThomson said:
PaulThomson said:
Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?



Why won't you answer my question? Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Is that what Calvinism teaches, or is it not?

That's a half truth! At the same time Calvinists understand that God is not author of sin or forces anyone to sin. And scripture bears this truth out in various places. Again, Adam felt genuine guilt over HIS sin that HE committed and that God "permitted" to happen. Likewise, Judas as well and he was even possessed by the devil himself, yet Judas KNEW he was guilty. Then we have Joseph's brothers do evil things to him that God decreed -- yet, they knew they were guilty of their sins because they lied to Jacob about what happened to their brother, etc.

Please format your quotes correctly so respondents don't end up with nothing when they press [reply].

No, it's not a half truth. It's one of your truth claims. You then attempt to avoid the logical entailments of that truth claim by add a "... but..." which is a second truth claim that contradicts your first truth claim. You second "... but..." truth claim is biblical. Your first contradicting claim. Is not biblical. Instead of jettisoning the false claim and findind two biblically compatible claims, you calvinists write volumes of books justifying the contradiction as mystery.

 

[PaulThomson]

Responding to a "nebulous slur" (it wasn't) with a nebulous slur? Exactly what I expected from you. You prove my point. Have a great Day!

I am. I am trusting our good God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[PaulThomson]

I am, thanks. I am trusting our good God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[PaulThomson]

What does "absolutely all" mean: in the or distributive sense? And EG kept insisting that "world" in Jn 3:16 CAN only mean that. But if context determines proper interpretation, as you claim, then a universal or distributive understanding would create more than a few contradictions in the bible, since God's love is conditional in nature and he hates sinners as well as their sin. So, what sayest thou, Mr. Sudden Proponent of Context?

As I told you before. God sees all our traits all at once, so suffers long with a present love / hate relationship with imperfect beings. He both loves those traits and behaviours in us that respect and nurture what is intrinsically valuable, and He hates those traits and behaviours in us that devalue and destroy what is intrinsically valuable.

 

[PaulThomson]

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NightTwister
NightTwister
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Today at 9:44 AM
#741
PaulThomson said:
Why won't you answer my question?
Because you aren't a person who operates on a good faith basis.
You can stop pretending that it all depends on you. For it's not how much you love, as much as how much He loves you. -- The Way of Wisdom, Michael Card
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PaulThomson
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Today at 9:47 AM
#742
NightTwister said:
Because you aren't a person who operates on a good faith basis.
I would say I'm one of a few here who try to answer questions straightforwardly and candidly. Why do you think I don't operate in good faith. Do you have an example?

It's a simple"Yes... but... ", or "No... but... " question.

Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Is that what Calvinism teaches, or is it not?
ReplyReport
NightTwister
NightTwister
Well-known member
Jul 6, 2023
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Today at 9:55 AM
#743
PaulThomson said:
I would say I'm one of a few here who try to answer questions straightforwardly and candidly. Why do you think I don't operate in good faith. Do you have an example?

It's a simple"Yes... but... ", or "No... but... " question.

Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Is that what Calvinism teaches, or is it not?
Click to expand...I already replied. Posting it again won't change my reply.
You can stop pretending that it all depends on you. For it's not how much you love, as much as how much He loves you. -- The Way of Wisdom, Michael Card
Like
ReplyReport
PaulThomson
Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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Today at 12:53 PM
#744
NightTwister said:
I already replied. Posting it again won't change my reply.
Your reply to
PaulThomson said:
Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Was

NightTwister said:
You don't have to understand what I believe, but you don't get to misrepresent it without getting called out for it.

That is not an answer to the question. The not-in-good-faith interlocutor here appears to be you.
ReplyReport
Rufus
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Feb 17, 2024
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Today at 6:01 PM
#745
PaulThomson said:
I was reciting what you believe, not what I believe. Your pronouncements on the nature of God are riddled with contradictions which you attempt to paper over with a 3m x 3m poster that says "Of course our description of God appears contradictory. He is so completely other to us that our logic cannot comprehend him. Humble yourselves and just accept that the contradictions are true."
No contradictions at all. God created man "upright", as Solomon said, was created "very good" as Genesis said and, yes, God decreed the Fall that Adam subsequently felt genuine guilt over. So stuff all that into you hash pipe and puff on it.
Like
ReplyReport
Rufus
Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Today at 6:10 PM
#746
PaulThomson said:
No Christian here who has continued reforming since 1559, has claimed that in scripture "all" always means "absolutely all" in every context. You are flailing at a straw man you yourself created.
What does "absolutely all" mean: in the or distributive sense? And EG kept insisting that "world" in Jn 3:16 CAN only mean that. But if context determines proper interpretation, as you claim, then a universal or distributive understanding would create more than a few contradictions in the bible, since God's love is conditional in nature and he hates sinners as well as their sin. So, what sayest thou, Mr. Sudden Proponent of Context?
Like
ReplyReport
Rufus
Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Today at 6:18 PM
#747
PaulThomson said:
PaulThomson said:
Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?



Why won't you answer my question? Is it not true that according to Calvinism, God has decreed in Himself … all things, whatsoever comes to pass, meaning that God’s decree is universal and comprehensive. Nothing happens outside of God’s decree, and everything that comes to pass is the perfect outworking of God’s decree?

Is that what Calvinism teaches, or is it not?



Please format your quotes correctly so respondents don't end up with nothing when they press [reply].

No, it's not a half truth. It's one of your truth claims. You then attempt to avoid the logical entailments of that truth claim by add a "... but..." which is a second truth claim that contradicts your first truth claim. You second "... but..." truth claim is biblical. Your first contradicting claim. Is not biblical. Instead of jettisoning the false claim and findind two biblically compatible claims, you calvinists write volumes of books justifying the contradiction as mystery.

I'm working off my mobile. I have no idea how all that preamble found its way into my post. Sorry.

 

[PaulThomson]

Responding to a "nebulous slur" (it wasn't) with a nebulous slur? Exactly what I expected from you. You prove my point. Have a great Day!

Your slur was nebulous. You provided no proof. And you are running. That's evident to all and not at all a nebulous unevidenced claim.

 

[Rufus]

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No, it's not a half truth. It's one of your truth claims. You then attempt to avoid the logical entailments of that truth claim by add a "... but..." which is a second truth claim that contradicts your first truth claim. You second "... but..." truth claim is biblical. Your first contradicting claim. Is not biblical. Instead of jettisoning the false claim and findind two biblically compatible claims, you calvinists write volumes of books justifying the contradiction as mystery.[/QUOTE]

No, the conclusion you draw with your finite, fallible, carnal, mind is fallacious. I just gave three examples earlier
of how God decreed the Fall, Joseph's plight with his brothers and Judas' betrayal of Christ -- all of which were ordained of God in eternity -- and yet all the guilty parties manifested their own personal guilt in each situation. What you do is try to reason through a great mystery that cannot be comprehended by the human mind. Then you think you understand God through your fallacious reasoning, which itself becomes your final authority for determining your version of the truth instead of God's!

Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
NIV

Calvinists, on the other hand, recognize and acknowledge the tension between God's will and man's, and generally don't invent clever, artificial ways to ease the tension and claim we understand how this seemingly contradictory tension can exist at the expense of biblical truth. We fully acknowledge that man's ways are NOT in himself and that God's will is always done here on earth as it is in heaven, while simultaneously maintaining that a thrice holy sovereign God is perfectly free to bestow grace upon whomever he wishes and also to withhold or withdraw his grace, that restrains sin, according to his good pleasure and from whomever he wishes, for he is not morally obligated or duty-bound to be gracious to any sinful moral agent.

Why would anyone think that God's perfect will that will always be accomplished in the next age of the eternal, visible Kingdom wherein everyone will be perfectly free from the power and presence sin, and yet not believe that about God in this age? If God does not "force" any of free moral agents in the next age to live sinless lives, then what would make anyone think that by God decreeing all things that come to past in this age would make Him morally culpable to the charge of forcing "free" moral agents to sin in this world?

So, the bottom line with non-Reformed Theology is people of this persuasion don't want to believe [trust] God but prefer instead to trust and rely upon their own finite, fallible, carnal powers of reasoning and use their fallacious conclusions as their final authority and basis for establishing their own personal version of the truth which invariably and inevitably will result in contradicting God's truth.

 

[Magenta]

I'm working off my mobile. I have no idea how all that preamble found its way into my post. Sorry.

Such a mess. There is always delete.

 

[PaulThomson]

Calling the contradictions between you foundational truth claims a"tension" between X and Y does not rid you of fact that your various truth claims themselves contradict.

And please learn to format quotes so I don't have to reformat everything via my phone to display what I am responding to.

You claim that Calvinists "generally don't invent clever, artificial ways to ease the tension and claim we understand how this seemingly contradictory tension can exist at the expense of biblical truth." A large portion of the calvinist literature is all about finding ways to justify keeping contradictions that are unnecessarily created by Calvinists applying logical fallacies when interpreting biblical texts, and then tarring those who use logic to weed out those logical fallacies and their resultant unbiblical conclusions as fleshly, unspiritual, darkened and foolish.

 

[Rufus]

Calling the contradictions between you foundational truth claims a"tension" between X and Y does not rid you of fact that your various truth claims themselves contradict.

And please learn to format quotes so I don't have to reformat everything via my phone to display what I am responding to.

You claim that Calvinists "generally don't invent clever, artificial ways to ease the tension and claim we understand how this seemingly contradictory tension can exist at the expense of biblical truth." A large portion of the calvinist literature is all about finding ways to justify keeping contradictions that are unnecessarily created by Calvinists applying logical fallacies when interpreting biblical texts, and then tarring those who use logic to weed out those logical fallacies and their resultant unbiblical conclusions as fleshly, unspiritual, darkened and foolish.

Nice projection.

Why don't you try addressing God's will "on earth as it is in heaven" problem that I presented in my last post. Since you have "reasoned" that God cannot be directing the steps of man here on earth because you think that would make Him the author of sin in man and, therefore, would violate his "free" moral agency, then to be to consistent with yourself you'd have to believe the same will be true in the Eternal Order since God had decreed that all his saints will be sinless for all eternity. So what about it: Will God violate the free moral agency of his saints and force them to not sin?