Loss of salvation???

[JohnDB]

As far as the OP is concerned.....

Two Biblical illustrations come to mind.
The parable of the soils. Don't be bad soil. You get to determine what type of soil you are up to a point. Be the best soil possible.

Then....
One of the prophets talked about a Potter working with clay. And how he worked very quickly because clay pots were inexpensive....and the only way he could make a living was with speed. He would use broken pots to enhance the appearance of the unfired clay too.

And from my time at a pottery wheel....tall vessels require pressure not only from the outside but also slightly offset from the outside pressure on the inside....and plenty of water (symbolic of law) on both pressure points. Resistance means more water is needed. Too much pressure on one side or the other and the clay is destroyed. Too much water and the clay becomes too soft and won't hold its shape....it will collapse under its own weight.
Certain clays make high, thin walled vessels. These can be so thin that light shines through and subsequently are very expensive and sought after.
Other clays are not so capable of being thin. They have purpose as well...but are much more common and for mundane purposes. These are heavy pots to carry.

In Ephesians 5 where Paul is often famously quoted about not getting drunk on wine...the larger purpose of the passage is about how we allow ourselves to be influenced by spirits. We can let the Holy Spirit lead and guide us or the spirit of hedonistic earthly pleasures. It's quite the contrast. People make this passage into a complicated legalism surrounding alcoholic beverages or recreational drug use. But in reality it is not so much a legalism surrounding intoxicating substances as an obvious urging to remain led by the Holy Spirit within each of us. To struggle against the desires of flesh and this world and live instead for Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

Okay, thats a fine illustration and I am fine with it. I dont see either the reception of the gift or the investing of it for a profit as “earning” anything. It’s all a gift. However, from your perspective, it would seem that the investing of the $1000 is, by your argument, “works.” So, my question to you is, “Why do you think it’s okay to receive salvation by grace alone, but heavenly rewards can be earned by our works?” Isn’t EVERYTHING we receive from God an act of grace? So, it seems to me that your argument is that eternal life is only by God’s grace, but the 15 mansions you get in heaven were a result of your own labor? How is that not a contradiction? That was the point i was trying to make.

God expects us to improve the gifts we are given. That's the point of the parable of the talents. That's why life started in a garden and ends in a city. God is creative and He expects us to be creative as well. He created the first 2 people and tasked them to fill the earth. He created a garden and turned the task of caring for it over to man. We are all responsible to build God's kingdom with the provision He gives to the praise of His grace and the glory of His name. It's not for salvation; it's the purpose of salvation. That He has attached rewards is a bonus. It should be our delight.

 

[Genez]

Let's use this analogy. You say "hold out your hand I will give you a thousand dollars". Equivalent to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will receive eternal life". It is a gift. I did nothing to produce the money, and no labour on my part earned it.

Now I have $1,000 I need to invest it. You have given me instructions on how to invest it wisely, I follow those instructions to the letter and double, treble maybe quadruple the investment. I earned that investment and am rewarded accordingly. Equivalent to a faithful walk that wins the prize, a crown of righteousness.

But let's say I ignore the instructions and waste the investment. I gain nothing and therefore have earned nothing. No prize for me at the end of the race but the capital (eternal life, the initial gift) remains because it is a secured capital. It is guaranteed by the word of God who gave it. God does not take back His gift. He is not fickle like men.

Salvation is more like God offering you a sandwich to eat.

Did you like it? Yes.
Then He declares you saved.
Did you do something knowing consciously to be saved? No.

If that sandwich is Jesus Christ?
And, you spit it out, and refused to swallow?
God declares to unsaved.

The issue in salvation is what?
Do you approve of Jesus, or not?

Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never
go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.' John 6:35

The issue in salvation is not something you must do to be saved.
Its a matter of discovering what pleases you, or repulses you.
You will be presented Jesus dying for your sins.


Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the
Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." John 6:53

 

[sawdust]

Okay, thats a fine illustration and I am fine with it. I dont see either the reception of the gift or the investing of it for a profit as “earning” anything. It’s all a gift. However, from your perspective, it would seem that the investing of the $1000 is, by your argument, “works.” So, my question to you is, “Why do you think it’s okay to receive salvation by grace alone, but heavenly rewards can be earned by our works?” Isn’t EVERYTHING we receive from God an act of grace? So, it seems to me that your argument is that eternal life is only by God’s grace, but the 15 mansions you get in heaven were a result of your own labor? How is that not a contradiction? That was the point i was trying to make.

Do you not remember the multiple times I said how we walk? By grace, through faith in the filling of the Spirit. It requires a conscious effort on our part based on a strict system laid down by the word. The power source is from God, so it is not "works" as you are thinking.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Our work is to trust in the Lord. We cannot do this if we are not rightly dividing the word of God because we end up trusting a god of our making not the Lord. It is why the word of God must take precedence in life and why we contend for the faith.

The word for “crown” in 2 Tim. 4:8 is “stephanos“. This is not a kingly crown but a crown of victory in games, which is a similar word used in 1 Cor 9:24 “brabeion” which was a crown wreath or garland bestowed on victors in the Greek games.

So, these are not two different ideas. Yes, he did say salvation is a gift of God. I agree with that. I dont think the reward/prize we accept for remaining faithful to Jesus is “earning” salvation. You taking far too much out of this illustration Paul is using. The point is simple. People in the Greek games give everything to strive to receive a temporary crown and glory that does not last. Christians, should endure and persist in their faith because they are longing for a crown and glory that endures forever. This has nothing to do with working for or earning anything. It has to do with endurance and the glory we seek in Christ that far outweighs any wreath a Greek athlete would train for. I assure you Paul wasn’t even thinking about Calvinistic ideas of “works based salvation” when he was using this illustraiton. He was talking about proper Christian focus and motivation to remain faithful

I know what the word is and you are correct but we did not get eternal life because we were victors. We were sinners and had no good thing to our name. They are two different ideas, they have to be, otherwise you have us earning salvation (eternal life) as a prize.

It's because we are already saved we can even talk about walking faithfully. You cannot do the walk if you are not saved and walking faithfully does not earn you salvation. I know what Paul is saying but the way you keep looking at his analogy is to end up saying we are striving for the gift of salvation which is our prize. It's an oxymoron. We are not working for salvation (eternal life), we are working to become like Christ. As you rightly pointed out the Lord Jesus is eternal life and we already have Him. Now, walk ye in the Way!

We get the victor's crown because we faithfully work out the eternal life we have been given freely in accordance with God's plan and purpose. If you try to become holy and reach the full stature of Jesus Christ in any other way than the one prescribed by God, you will not get the crown. If you cannot be trusted with the "little" (in comparison with what waits in eternity) you are given in the here and now, then you will not be given more in the resurrected state. We have equal opportunity in Christ, we do not have equal outcomes. Fidelity is rewarded, infidelity is not.

 

[Beckworth]

Salvation is not a prize we must compete for!
Jesus secured our salvation on the Cross.

The following passage is what that prize is about!

And, at the end of that passage?
It tells us that those who fail to gain the prize?
.... Are yet saved!!!

Read it!

​

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be ​

revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. ​

​

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. (prize!) ​

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss (no prize!) but yet will be saved​

—even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 3:11-15​

​

grace and peace ............

“You do err not knowing the scriptures.”
Did you read the context of that passage? It is not talking about what you are saying. Start in verse 5. Paul is talking about his WORK of preaching the gospel. In fact, the Bible app I use has this section of scripture titled “WATERING, WORK. And WARNING.” Paul says he and Apollos are God’s “ministers” through whom they believed. Paul is talking to people that he and Apollos taught the gospel and converted to Christ. Verse 5

Paul says I “planted”— planted what? He planted the “seed” of the gospel; like in the parable the sower. Then Apollos “watered” that “seed” and God did his work with the gospel and people were converted—the increase. Verse 6.

Verse 9 explains the context of the whole dialog— we are FELLOW WORKERS ( in the gospel). You (the converts) are God’s FIELD; you are God’s BUILDING. He compares their “WORK” to building a building. Paul was the master builder. He laid the “foundation” with his preaching and converts. Apollos built on top of that foundation with HIS preaching and converts. Verse 10. BUT he warns—be careful how you build on that foundation. Jesus is the true foundation and your work must be according to truth; it must be done right.

THAT is the context, the background, the setting for the next verses. Verse 12 - He’s talking about “anyone’s WORK! He says so in verse 13. Some preacher might “build” on that foundation of Jesus and his work will be gold, silver, or precious stones—according to the hearts of the people he converts. Sometimes a preacher will add straw, hay or stubble on the foundation- again, that has to do with the kind of people he converts— his WORK!

Verse 13 - FIRE will test EACH MAN’s WORK! The converts who are wood, hay, and stubble will be burned up. That man will lose those he tried to save, but he himself will be saved. He will not be lost just because the people he tried to convert are lost.

The man whose “WORK” turned out to be gold, silver and precious stones will be rewarded by seeing his work succeed. He will be like the man in the parable of the talents. He will have gained more for his master.

This is NOT talking about a man who was once saved and cannot Lose his salvation. You cannot take a verse out of it’s context! You will be misled into error every time. Always read Before the verse and AFTER the verse to see what the writer is talking about.
You have taken that passage of scripture COMPLETELY out of it’s context.

 

[Beckworth]

Salvation is more like God offering you a sandwich to eat.

Did you like it? Yes.
Then He declares you saved.
Did you do something knowing consciously to be saved? No.

If that sandwich is Jesus Christ?
And, you spit it out, and refused to swallow?
God declares to unsaved.

The issue in salvation is what?
Do you approve of Jesus, or not?

Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never
go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.' John 6:35

The issue in salvation is not something you must do to be saved.
Its a matter of discovering what pleases you, or repulses you.
You will be presented Jesus dying for your sins.


Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the
Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." John 6:53

Of course you must DO something to be saved! “Believe” is something you must do! The jailer in Acts 16 asked, “What must I DO? And Paul said “Believe”. You can deny it all you want to, but faith is a work and God has plainly told us that in scripture. John 6:29 the disciples asked what they must DO to WORK the WORKS of God. JESUS—did you get that?—JESUS, the SON OF GOD—said, “ This is the WORK of God that you BELIEVE. Do you believe God? Or do you believe the lie that Satan has told for 100 years-that all WORKS are bad and that if you WORK you have earned salvation and you can’t earn salvation, etc, etc, etc, always expect Satan to say the very opposite of what God says. He did in the very beginning in the garden with Eve. God told EVE if you eat the fruit YOU WILL DIE! Satan told Eve You will NOT DIE! You see; just the opposite of what God says. Satan has not changed his tactics today. He’s STILL LYING to you. Prove this to yourself. If God says one thing in the Bible and A man says the very OPPOSITE thing to you, you can be sure that Satan is using that man to deceive people just like Satan used Peter in Matthew 16:23. For example, GOD SAYS We are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ONly in James 2:24. What do men say? YES, WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH ONLY. Satan is using men (preachers) just like he tried to use Peter who was the Lord’s apostle. If he used an APOSTLE don’t you think he is capable of using preachers today? 2 Cor, 2:11 “ lest Satan should take advantage or us for WE ARE NOT IGNORANT OF HIS DEVICES.” Except we ARE ignorant of his devices.
Here’s another one. 1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism saves us. What does Satan say? Baptism does NOT save us. It’s the scenario in the garden with Eve all over again!! And all the people in the “broad way” are buying it!

1Thess. 1:3 says, “Remembering your WORK OF FAITH. God is telling you; are you listening? Or, are you listening to Satan?

 

[Beckworth]

This isn’t how grammar works, friend. You don‘t punctuate for specific people. You follow the rules of grammar so your message can be properly understood. I mean, I’m not asking you for a personal favor here. I’m just letting you know that if you dont punctuate properly and use fragmented sentences as you are prone to do, you will likely be misunderstood. It’s not my job, as a reader, to try to understand your intent independant of what your actual sentences say.

I am more than happy to ask for clarification and give you the benefit of the doubt, as I did on the comments that appeared to be Adoptionism. However, I’m just recommending, out of kindness toward you, to encourage you to consider your grammar before replying so people know what you truly mean rather than what your sentences may inaccurately state.

.

As an English teacher—I completely agree. Grammar rules are for EVERYBODY!!

 

[Beckworth]

I think this question is asked in ignorance or lack of understanding of some terms abused by many good people.

for example:

1. Backsliding

A person who backslides doesn't happen overnight. It is a willfully constant in disobedience to the Holy Spirit and God's word that you can no longer be convicted by the sinful act you have become bound by. Backsliding is not a one-hit wonder, people; it is a condition. You are willfully sinning. Therefore, your salvation could be in question from the very beginning. We know fully well what we are doing. We are seeking the pleasures of the season.

If you love the Lord, you will obey him as he said, yet if we fall, we have Jesus, our advocate, meaning you are doing everything you should be doing, but because of the war going on in your body, you mess up. Still, you don't give in to it. You ask forgiveness and actively seek to repent. Those who are backsliding are not doing so. They need a touch from God to wake them up like the prodigal. When you fail, God, as we all have, do you wait a month or weeks to say, Lord, forgive, however,e me? NO. That shows you care about your walk with the Lord. Backsliden are no longer concerned; they are willfully sinning. They may have never been saved, but I don't know that.

Hebrews 10:38-39–“The just shall live by faith; but if anyone DRAWS BACK my soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition but of those who believe to the saving of their souls.”

This is addressed to Christian’s. In chapter 2 verse 1 he says, “we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we DRIFT AWAY.” In chapter 3 verse 1 he addressed them as “HOLY BRETHREN, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING.” That is the Holy Spirit, ‘s description of these people—not man’s. In verse 12 of that same chapter he says, “Beware, BRETHREN, lest there be in you an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.” People can start out believing in God but lose their faith. We see it all the time. That’s what the parable of the sower is all about. In that parable people were accepting the “seed” of God and in some cases it even grew a little or remained for awhile but then died. The soil that accepted God’s “seed” was the hearts of men. Just because someone leaves the faith we don’t need to say “well, they were never truly converted anyway.” Isn’t that sour grapes? Ever heard of Aesop’s fables? The fox and the crow?

 

[Beckworth]

Hebrews 10:38-39–“The just shall live by faith; but if anyone DRAWS BACK my soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition but of those who believe to the saving of their souls.”

This is addressed to Christian’s. In chapter 2 verse 1 he says, “we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we DRIFT AWAY.” In chapter 3 verse 1 he addressed them as “HOLY BRETHREN, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING.” That is the Holy Spirit, ‘s description of these people—not man’s. In verse 12 of that same chapter he says, “Beware, BRETHREN, lest there be in you an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.” People can start out believing in God but lose their faith. We see it all the time. That’s what the parable of the sower is all about. In that parable people were accepting the “seed” of God and in some cases it even grew a little or remained for awhile but then died. The soil that accepted God’s “seed” was the hearts of men. Just because someone leaves the faith we don’t need to say “well, they were never truly converted anyway.” Isn’t that sour grapes? Ever heard of Aesop’s fables? The fox and the crow?

. Oops. My bad. The fox and the grapes

 

[Cameron143]

Hebrews 10:38-39–“The just shall live by faith; but if anyone DRAWS BACK my soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition but of those who believe to the saving of their souls.”

This is addressed to Christian’s. In chapter 2 verse 1 he says, “we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we DRIFT AWAY.” In chapter 3 verse 1 he addressed them as “HOLY BRETHREN, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING.” That is the Holy Spirit, ‘s description of these people—not man’s. In verse 12 of that same chapter he says, “Beware, BRETHREN, lest there be in you an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.” People can start out believing in God but lose their faith. We see it all the time. That’s what the parable of the sower is all about. In that parable people were accepting the “seed” of God and in some cases it even grew a little or remained for awhile but then died. The soil that accepted God’s “seed” was the hearts of men. Just because someone leaves the faith we don’t need to say “well, they were never truly converted anyway.” Isn’t that sour grapes? Ever heard of Aesop’s fables? The fox and the crow?

How is someone unborn from above?
How is someone taken out of Christ?
If eternal life can be lost, how is it eternal?

 

[CS1]

Hebrews 10:38-39–“The just shall live by faith; but if anyone DRAWS BACK my soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition but of those who believe to the saving of their souls.”

This is addressed to Christian’s. In chapter 2 verse 1 he says, “we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we DRIFT AWAY.” In chapter 3 verse 1 he addressed them as “HOLY BRETHREN, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING.” That is the Holy Spirit, ‘s description of these people—not man’s. In verse 12 of that same chapter he says, “Beware, BRETHREN, lest there be in you an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.” People can start out believing in God but lose their faith. We see it all the time. That’s what the parable of the sower is all about. In that parable people were accepting the “seed” of God and in some cases it even grew a little or remained for awhile but then died. The soil that accepted God’s “seed” was the hearts of men. Just because someone leaves the faith we don’t need to say “well, they were never truly converted anyway.” Isn’t that sour grapes? Ever heard of Aesop’s fables? The fox and the crow?

Hebrews is addressing the Jews. Those who return back to the law.

 

[Chaps]

God expects us to improve the gifts we are given. That's the point of the parable of the talents. That's why life started in a garden and ends in a city. God is creative and He expects us to be creative as well. He created the first 2 people and tasked them to fill the earth. He created a garden and turned the task of caring for it over to man. We are all responsible to build God's kingdom with the provision He gives to the praise of His grace and the glory of His name. It's not for salvation; it's the purpose of salvation. That He has attached rewards is a bonus. It should be our delight.

Well I would disagree that this is the point of the parable of the talents. The parable of the talents, in my opinion, is primarily about always being ready for Christ‘s return and the rejection of those who do not live with that anticipation. The parable caps off a series of three parables: the parable of the wicked servant, the parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the talents. So I think the emphasis is highlighting those who stopped watching and lived as though the master wasn’t going to return.

In any event, I agree that God desires and rewards faithfulness. However, I disagree that these rewards are “earned” rewards or that the “crown” is a product of our merit that is somehow independent of the gift of salvation.

Faith is trust in Christ’s work and not my own. Faith can be difficult and it is easy to lose heart or lose trust. Especially in the face of mocking, persecution or the threat of physical harm (as many early Christians faced). This is the race Paul spoke of. It was not a challenge to earn more heavenly rewards by being better than others who might also be saved. It is the call to radical faithfulness in the teeth of a contrary and oppositional world where faithfulness and obedience to Christ can make you a target. So, in my estimation, there are rewards for faithfulness…the pinnacle of which is salvation and eternal life. However, it is ALL a gift of God. It is not that some is a gift and some is earned by merit.

I think the parable of the workers illustrates this very idea. Jesus speaks of a man who hires workers to labor in his field. Some of which worked all day and received what they were promised and others who only worked a few hours and received the same as those who worked all day. Those who labored longer felt cheated as if they deserved more. However, the point Jesus is making is that all we receive from God is an act of his grace. What we receive, both in terms of life and reward is ultimately based on his grace. We will get precisely what God has promised us if we live by faith. However, if God chooses to bless someone else with more opportunity, grace and suffering, then that is His perogative. It is only for us to live in accordance to the portion God has given us. Of course, there are those who do not remain faithful, and lose heart along the way. And they receive neither heavenly reward or life. Instead, they are cast out to where there is “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” And THIS is what the parables of the wicked servant, virgins and talents is highlighting.

 

[Cameron143]

Well I would disagree that this is the point of the parable of the talents. The parable of the talents, in my opinion, is primarily about always being ready for Christ‘s return and the rejection of those who do not live with that anticipation. The parable caps off a series of three parables: the parable of the wicked servant, the parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the talents. So I think the emphasis is highlighting those who stopped watching and lived as though the master wasn’t going to return.

In any event, I agree that God desires and rewards faithfulness. However, I disagree that these rewards are “earned” rewards or that the “crown” is a product of our merit that is somehow independent of the gift of salvation.

Faith is trust in Christ’s work and not my own. Faith can be difficult and it is easy to lose heart or lose trust. Especially in the face of mocking, persecution or the threat of physical harm (as many early Christians faced). This is the race Paul spoke of. It was not a challenge to earn more heavenly rewards by being better than others who might also be saved. It is the call to radical faithfulness in the teeth of a contrary and oppositional world where faithfulness and obedience to Christ can make you a target. So, in my estimation, there are rewards for faithfulness…the pinnacle of which is salvation and eternal life. However, it is ALL a gift of God. It is not that some is a gift and some is earned by merit.

I think the parable of the workers illustrates this very idea. Jesus speaks of a man who hires workers to labor in his field. Some of which worked all day and received what they were promised and others who only worked a few hours and received the same as those who worked all day. Those who labored longer felt cheated as if they deserved more. However, the point Jesus is making is that all we receive from God is an act of his grace. What we receive, both in terms of life and reward is ultimately based on his grace. We will get precisely what God has promised us if we live by faith. However, if God chooses to bless someone else with more opportunity, grace and suffering, then that is His perogative. It is only for us to live in accordance to the portion God has given us. Of course, there are those who do not remain faithful, and lose heart along the way. And they receive neither heavenly reward or life. Instead, they are cast out to where there is “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” And THIS is what the parables of the wicked servant, virgins and talents is highlighting.

I'm well aware of what you have shared.

 

[Chaps]

Do you not remember the multiple times I said how we walk? By grace, through faith in the filling of the Spirit. It requires a conscious effort on our part based on a strict system laid down by the word. The power source is from God, so it is not "works" as you are thinking.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Our work is to trust in the Lord. We cannot do this if we are not rightly dividing the word of God because we end up trusting a god of our making not the Lord. It is why the word of God must take precedence in life and why we contend for the faith.



I know what the word is and you are correct but we did not get eternal life because we were victors. We were sinners and had no good thing to our name. They are two different ideas, they have to be, otherwise you have us earning salvation (eternal life) as a prize.

It's because we are already saved we can even talk about walking faithfully. You cannot do the walk if you are not saved and walking faithfully does not earn you salvation. I know what Paul is saying but the way you keep looking at his analogy is to end up saying we are striving for the gift of salvation which is our prize. It's an oxymoron. We are not working for salvation (eternal life), we are working to become like Christ. As you rightly pointed out the Lord Jesus is eternal life and we already have Him. Now, walk ye in the Way!

We get the victor's crown because we faithfully work out the eternal life we have been given freely in accordance with God's plan and purpose. If you try to become holy and reach the full stature of Jesus Christ in any other way than the one prescribed by God, you will not get the crown. If you cannot be trusted with the "little" (in comparison with what waits in eternity) you are given in the here and now, then you will not be given more in the resurrected state. We have equal opportunity in Christ, we do not have equal outcomes. Fidelity is rewarded, infidelity is not.

I agree with most of what you wrote there, except for the ideas we have already discussed at length. To me, they are minor differences that, more than likely, do not affect either of our daily walks. So, while I enjoy discussing the issues and thinking about them Biblically, I dont see it as a significant issue in the least. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on the topic.

 

[Chaps]

I'm well aware of what you have shared.

Just responding to your public comment on my post for everyone reading.

 

[Cameron143]

Just responding to your public comment on my post for everyone reading.

Awesome

 

[Chaps]

First time using the “ignore” button…sigh,.

 

[Cameron143]

First time using the “ignore” button…sigh,.

I understand your disappointment.

 

[Chaps]

What you are failing to see, is that Jesus was required to remain as a man in order to qualify to die in the place of all men.

Satan knew who Jesus really was. So did demons...

Then what was the point of Satan tempting Jesus to turn stones into bread when Satan knew the true identity of Jesus?

A first class condition in the Greek means something is so...
And, its what Satan used in Matthew 4:3.


The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the
Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”


The Greek uses a first class condition, and should be rendered more as follows...

The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of
God [and you are], tell these stones to become bread.”

What was Satan hoping to accomplish with his challenge to Jesus?
Reading the English translation renders a wrong impression.
Satan was not seeking for Jesus to prove he was God.

Knowing the Greek grammar and syntax , it would let the Greek reader know that Satan was not challenging Jesus to prove he was the God the Son. For Satan was acknowledging that He knew Jesus was the Son. Satan had known Jesus prior.
But, Satan's challenge had to mean something different than what many English Bible readers could not know.

The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of
God [and you are], tell these stones to become bread.”

Satan was tempting Jesus to cease being as a man, and to be as God.
If Jesus gave in? And returned to functioning as God?
In the moment Jesus did that? Jesus would have been disqualified to die as a man for all men!

The following was taken from notes of a lecture/Bible lesson given my Pastor who always taught us from the Greek text.

3~~ And when the tempter {Satan/Lucifer/the devil} came to Him, he said, "If You are always {in the absolute status of being} the Son of God - and you are - SPEAK that these stones may become bread."

{Note: The Greek syntax of a 1st class conditional clause requires 'and you are'. This indicates that Satan recognized the deity of Christ even if we do not! Doesn't imply though Satan was saved by this belief, his salvation test was different and his judgement already declared.}

{Note: This is a true and unique temptation for Christ - he could do it! You and I could not! Tempting the humanity of Christ to obtain a lawful thing (food) in an unlawful way (using a Miracle to relieve intense hunger - hunger peaks in a human body in the 40th day) instead of relying on his Unique Prototype Spiritual Life). This would be a sin -- Arrogance -- similar to Lucifer's first sin 'I will be like the most high'}.

Yes, I’m very familiar with Greek and have studied it extensively both formally and informally.

I still have no idea what your point is. I already told you I agreed that Jesus was divine but humbled himself as a man. I am not, and have not disputed this point. What does this have to do with Jesus’ teaching not being applicable to Christians or Gentiles?

 

[Beckworth]

No, the race is still on. I don't make the rules, I just follow them.

So what do you think the singular prize that we are running for?