What Changed?
- Thread starter BillyBob
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Huh? I don't follow your logic on any of that. And no, I don't have it backwards. No one comes to Jesus unless the Father draw him. God sends his Spirit to convict you of your fallen nature, invite you in, etc. Then, if you receive it, you repent of what you are and get cleansed in baptism, then Holy Spirit becomes a part of your very soul.
Add: I suddenly perceive that perhaps you are trying to take the metaphor too far. I don't know, but I do know what I'm talking about whether I know how it does or doesn't fit with the metaphor to the extent you are looking for.
Add: I suddenly perceive that perhaps you are trying to take the metaphor too far. I don't know, but I do know what I'm talking about whether I know how it does or doesn't fit with the metaphor to the extent you are looking for.
Or you're not taking the simile far enough, and this is a problem pandemic proportions within the Church. Most people tend to gloss over similes, such as spiritual death, sheep, new birth, etc. , and in so doing destroy the analogies to the point where there is barely any resemblance between the two kinds of objects (physical and spiritual).
For example, what you describe in your first paragraph, earlier you characterized all those actions (drawing, convicting, etc.) as "external" activities of the Holy Spirit; whereas I see those kinds of things as being internal signs of life within a soul that is bringing the soul to the point of it's "new birth". In other words, I see the "new birth" as a process of Regeneration, just like physical birth is a process of pregnancy that began at conception. This spiritual birth, therefore, takes when a person bears witness to the world that s/he is a believer which is when that person becomes conscious and aware of God's work within and acts accordingly. Likewise, the world knows that a miracle of physical birth takes when the child is born -- the newborn being the testimony of this miracle, etc.
And most importantly, my understanding of Regeneration and the New Birth harmonizes very nicely with the terms of the unconditional New Covenant in which God promises to act unilaterally upon his chosen, covenant people. For example, no one comes physically into this world by an act of his own will -- but strictly by God's eternal decree. The same goes for the elect's spiritual birth.
For example, what you describe in your first paragraph, earlier you characterized all those actions (drawing, convicting, etc.) as "external" activities of the Holy Spirit; whereas I see those kinds of things as being internal signs of life within a soul that is bringing the soul to the point of it's "new birth". In other words, I see the "new birth" as a process of Regeneration, just like physical birth is a process of pregnancy that began at conception. This spiritual birth, therefore, takes when a person bears witness to the world that s/he is a believer which is when that person becomes conscious and aware of God's work within and acts accordingly. Likewise, the world knows that a miracle of physical birth takes when the child is born -- the newborn being the testimony of this miracle, etc.
And most importantly, my understanding of Regeneration and the New Birth harmonizes very nicely with the terms of the unconditional New Covenant in which God promises to act unilaterally upon his chosen, covenant people. For example, no one comes physically into this world by an act of his own will -- but strictly by God's eternal decree. The same goes for the elect's spiritual birth.
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How do you know that to be the case? How do you know that God does not get the consent of the spirit and soul before it is put into a zygote? You are assuming what you are claiming to be proving. That's another logical fallacy, begging the question, that is very popular among Calvinists. You don't know what the mechanism is by which God places a soul and spirit into flesh. In fact, Jesus Christ is a known counter-example to your claim. Before He came inti the world, He wanted to incarnate.
His will was involved.
Give me a scripture that says "No one comes physically into this world by an act of his own will -- but strictly by God's eternal decree. "
His will was involved.
Give me a scripture that says "No one comes physically into this world by an act of his own will -- but strictly by God's eternal decree. "
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Ephesians 2:1-3 You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
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Ephesians 2:1-3 You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
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The baby in the womb does not digest and metabolise it's own food by ingesting, chewing and processing, but the rew materials for its development and growth are provided via the umbilical cord from outside the baby, directly absorbed into the baby's bloodstream. So in that sense its food processor is outside. At birth, breathing begins and the baby begins to take responsibility for digesting and transforming food into flesh and bone. The baby starts to demand food rather than just passively absorbing it.
Is it possible that regeneration, receiving the word of God, the incorruptible seed, equates to conception, when the ovum receives the seed of the man; and being born again equates to water baptism, where the believer leaves the womb of the world and begins to take responsibility for learning to feed him/herself and digest the word him/herself, and to dress himself, showing forth works worthy of repentance towards God?
Is it possible that regeneration, receiving the word of God, the incorruptible seed, equates to conception, when the ovum receives the seed of the man; and being born again equates to water baptism, where the believer leaves the womb of the world and begins to take responsibility for learning to feed him/herself and digest the word him/herself, and to dress himself, showing forth works worthy of repentance towards God?
Your response tells me nothing Biblical. This is a good case in point. There are none righteous, no not one means
nothing to you. You argue endlessly against what is plainly stated, preferring your own unfounded opinions over
what is written, and think nothing of adding to what is said in your deplorable attempts to invalidate truth.
nothing to you. You argue endlessly against what is plainly stated, preferring your own unfounded opinions over
what is written, and think nothing of adding to what is said in your deplorable attempts to invalidate truth.
Ephesians 2:4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
From Ephesians 1:4-6
At least I'm not arguing from silence, which is what you would be doing if you believe the nonsense you wrote. Moreover, I have scripture to support my position.
John 1:13
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God .
NIV
See also Rom 9:14-16).
Since this is true of spiritual birth, how much more would it be true of physical birth?
And you also keep forgetting that God's will is not contingent on any created being's will (Eph 1:11)
Also, in Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus in John 3 he made an analogy between physical and spiritual birth, and Jesus made it very clear to Nicodemus that the new birth the is the result of the Spirit's sovereign work that is performed on a person. Jesus did not tell the Pharisee that he had to so something to be born again -- but rather something had to be done to him!
Finally, show me anywhere in scripture where God asks for the consent of any created being for anything before He acts.
John 1:13
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God .
NIV
See also Rom 9:14-16).
Since this is true of spiritual birth, how much more would it be true of physical birth?
And you also keep forgetting that God's will is not contingent on any created being's will (Eph 1:11)
Also, in Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus in John 3 he made an analogy between physical and spiritual birth, and Jesus made it very clear to Nicodemus that the new birth the is the result of the Spirit's sovereign work that is performed on a person. Jesus did not tell the Pharisee that he had to so something to be born again -- but rather something had to be done to him!
Finally, show me anywhere in scripture where God asks for the consent of any created being for anything before He acts.
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