Not By Works

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Magenta

Magenta

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Isaiah 1:4-5 Alas, O sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a brood of evildoers, children of depravity! They have forsaken the LORD; they have despised the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on Him. Why do you want more beatings? Why do you keep rebelling? Your head has a massive wound, and your whole heart is afflicted.
 
Hakawaka

Hakawaka

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PennEd said:
That is completely YOUR opinion.

The text unambiguously says the Lord will have mercy upon who He will have mercy upon.

An alternative way of reading Peter is to say as Cameron said, that all men refer to all groups of people, for all times, not just the Jews or early Church.

You want your way of interpreting Scripture to be the only way. Even when the text says the opposite.
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Yes it says that. And the Bible tells us to whom He will have mercy... He will show mercy to the HUMBLE.
 
Hakawaka

Hakawaka

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Lamar said:
Serious questions.

Does anyone know of a theologian or even lay person who accepts the tenets of Calvinism as correct but does not believe he is among the chosen few?

How does a proclaimed Calvinist know that he is among the chosen few?

Is it possible to believe the tenets of Calvinism but not know your status among the chosen damned or chosen saved?

Is believing in Calvinism evidence of being among the chosen few?
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To the surprise of none, this never occurs. However James White was pressed by Michael Brown in a debate to admit that he infact has no assurance of salvation whatsoever. Because calvinists believe in "evanescent grace" which is that God gives grace for some people to believe for a while, but then they truly weren't elect so they didnt persevere till the end. The sadism is off the charts. So in reality as a calvinist you can never know if you truly are saved in the end, someone who believes they can lose their salvation has more assurance even, because atleast they can remain steadfast in the faith and know for sure they will make it if they keep the faith.

They would say believing the Gospel is evidence of being elect, which means I am elect according to calvinists, strangely enough, God predestinated me to NOT agree with calvinism, yet saved me.
 
Hakawaka

Hakawaka

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Magenta said:
Oh, silly to think one would be humbled to be under God's righteous judgment?

So so silly to think the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God would humble anyone?

One can only conclude you have never felt such conviction. Your silly self-righteousness prohibits it.
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Do you have some personal beef with him/her? How did you get that from what he/she said? She quoted the verse and agreed with it that if we humble ourselves, God will exalt us, and if we do not then God will judge us and then we're gonna be humble in the end.
 
Hakawaka

Hakawaka

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Cameron143 said:
So people are in hell who's sins have been paid for?
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Yes. Lots of em. Including the false prophets:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Hebrews 10:28-29
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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Cameron143 said:
So people are in hell who's sins have been paid for?
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they will be yes

because they did nto believe

John 3, He who believes is not condemned,

He who does not believe is condemned already because their sins were not paid for? No. Because they did not believe
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Hakawaka said:
Yes. Lots of em. Including the false prophets:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Hebrews 10:28-29
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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Think about what you are saying. Jesus paid for everyone's sins. God accepted the payment for everyone's sins. God punishes some anyway.
How is God then just?
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Cameron143 said:
Think about what you are saying. Jesus paid for everyone's sins. God accepted the payment for everyone's sins. God punishes some anyway.
How is God then just?
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He is just because he did not just cast them to hell with no offer of salvation
He is just because he loved his enemy (he did not tell us to do something he did not do)
He is just because he gave them an out. they rejected him, it is on them, not on God

Your view makes him unjust. and also has him commanding we do what he himself refuses to do.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Everlasting-Grace said:
See John 3
start there then go to other passages which support that the only thing that separates the saved from the lost is those who trust God and those who do not.
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God is sovereign and can and does do as He pleases. But if He accepts payment for sins and then reneges on the deal, He cannot also be said to be just.
Unbelief should not pose a problem for you. Unbelief is a sin and has been paid for, just as every other sin, right?
 
PennEd

PennEd

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Jesus said ALL sins will be forgiven.

They can ONLY be forgiven if He paid for them.

Since ALL sins are forgiven and paid for except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, then those who are in Hades, and eventually Hell, have had their sins paid for.

The question becomes, do all those sins go back on their ledgers after they commit that sin?

I'm thinking yes.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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Cameron143 said:
God is sovereign and can and does do as He pleases.
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Yes he can, And he choses to offer salvation to everyone, Those who recieve iut, he will saved (john 1: 12 with John 3, and John 6) those who do not. He will not save but allow them to remain in their condemned state,

As you said, God has the right to do this

But if He accepts payment for sins and then reneges on the deal, He cannot also be said to be just.
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He is not reneging the deal. Why do you make this so difficult. They are cast to hell because of their unbelief. Not because of their sin, The penalty of their sin was paid for..
Unbelief should not pose a problem for you. Unbelief is a sin and has been paid for, just as every other sin, right?
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No. Jesus did not pay for the sin of unbelief, You want to blaspheme the HS by rejecting his word, his conviction and his work. then you will suffer that fate.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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PennEd said:
Jesus said ALL sins will be forgiven.

They can ONLY be forgiven if He paid for them.

Since ALL sins are forgiven and paid for except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, then those who are in Hades, and eventually Hell, have had their sins paid for.

The question becomes, do all those sins go back on their ledgers after they commit that sin?

I'm thinking yes.
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Rejecting christ, are they just rejecting christ. or are they rejecting the HS also?

Blasphemy of the HS is what will condemn the lost. because they dissented from his view. and rejected his words.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Everlasting-Grace said:
Yes he can, And he choses to offer salvation to everyone, Those who recieve iut, he will saved (john 1: 12 with John 3, and John 6) those who do not. He will not save but allow them to remain in their condemned state,

As you said, God has the right to do this


He is not reneging the deal. Why do you make this so difficult. They are cast to hell because of their unbelief. Not because of their sin, The penalty of their sin was paid for..

No. Jesus did not pay for the sin of unbelief, You want to blaspheme the HS by rejecting his word, his conviction and his work. then you will suffer that fate.
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Is unbelief a sin?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Lamar said:
Yes, God will have mercy upon who He will have mercy upon. That's it. No need to read into it.
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Yes, agree, as well it does not mean He will save some and leave others in their sin.
The word is mercy.
 
Mem

Mem

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When you don't want to hold something that's given to you, let's say a ball, you don't have to even smack it away. You just let it fall to the ground once it's released by the donor and it might bounce back to give you another opportunity to take hold of it but, if not, eventually, it will roll away and come to rest on the ground. And even then, you could pick it up there but, again, that's up to you. It isn't God that drops the ball.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Limited atonement is a....

... a doctrine in search of a text!!!
:unsure:

So then we turn to philosophy, you mean there are people in hell and Christ died for their sins?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Lamar said:
Why are we called to confess and believe in the name of the Lord if we simply cannot?

This is the ditch that Calvinism leads to in the end.
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Seems if we confess and believe that is being self-righteous... even though we are commanded to believe.

Anonymous:

"Christ Jesus I have heard the Gospel, I believe and trust that you died for me and are able to free me from my sins, I humbly accept your gift of salvation because I know your standard is perfection and only Jesus was able to fulfill this requirement as was explained to me."

Some other god:
Gift denied!!!"
"How dare you be so self-righteous to believe the Gospel when you have not been selected by me, I commanded all men to believe, but be sure only those who are dragged to belief by me are the chosen.

The Gospel is so very, very complicated and you were BORN blind, deaf, totally unable to respond to TRUTH and completely sinful from birth.

I reserve all glory for myself and deny you belief, you cannot believe the Gospel, I was only pretending when I commanded you to believe, what I really meant was you cannot believe somehow the Bible got is wrong here I fixed it....

They replied, “When I bequeath you with belief in the Lord Jesus then you will be saved—you and your household.”


It is a big ditch alright, I wonder what God thinks about this sometimes.
 
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