Was Erasmus one of the greatest scholars of his day?

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#1
Unbelieving critics have been scoffing at and mocking Desiderius (“Beloved”) Erasmus of Rotterdam for a long time. But he was the greatest scholars of his day, and Christians owe a lot to Erasmus.

2016 was the 500th anniversary of Erasmus first printed Greek text of the New Testament (1516 AD). “He dedicated his life to the study and publishing of the Bible and the writings from the earliest centuries of the Church. Erasmus was recognized throughout Europe as the greatest scholar of his day. The focus of his study was the Bible.” https://hc.edu/museums/dunham-bible...bits/erasmus-an-the-renaissance-of-the-bible/

Erasmus started out as an Augustinian monk and became a Catholic priest in 1492. But he left this occupation to become a scholar. Eventually he became a staunch Protestant, but wanted to reform the Catholic Church from within.

He went to England met John Colet at Oxford. Colet encouraged him to begin an intensive study of Greek. In 1504 he discovered a manuscript by Lorenzo Valla which compared the Latin Vulgate to the Greek, and showed the differences. This further encouraged Erasmus to intensify his biblical studies. In 1505 he printed Valla’s Adnotations Novum Testamentum, and in its preface wrote of the importance of recovering the true text of the Bible. Then he also made a Latin translation of the Greek New Testament, in order to compare it with the Latin Vulgate and show its errors. He also published many biblical works.

Erasmus wrote that “The most exalted aim in the revival of philosophical studies will be to obtain a knowledge of the pure and simple Christianity of the Bible.” (From Ad Servitium, as quoted by Jean D’Aubigne, History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, volume 1. New York: Robert Carter & Brothers, 1853, 124) Erasmus was eloquent, a great linguist, and knowledgeable in the classics and in history. But he had a kind of conversion from classical literature to sacred letters.

Around 1491, fifty years after Gutenberg invented printing, Johann Froben established a printing house in Basel, Switzerland. This is where Erasmus had his Greek New Testament printed in 1516. He used only seven Greek manuscripts, and translated Revelation out of the Vulgate, but also informed his readers that he had done this, since he could not avail himself of the Greek. He called his printed New Testament Novum Instrumetum (a new instrument), and also included his Latin translation in parallel (to correct the errors of Jerome’s Vulgate).

Why did he dedicate this volume to Pope Leo X? Because he wanted to deflect his critics, who were objecting to the exposure of the Vulgate’s errors. Pope Leo X wrote a very complimentary letter, which he included in the second edition of his work. The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) was missing from his first two editions, but was included in his third edition. He said he could not find it in the manuscripts at his disposal, but it was in the Latin Vulgate. This was also because of pressure from his critics (but this verse belongs in the Bible, it is found in several manuscripts, and without it the passage is incomplete and makes no sense).

The first edition of Erasmus’ Greek Testament was rushed in order to be ahead of the Complutensian Polyglott (1522). Therefore he began revising and correcting it immediately for printing errors, and his second edition was called Novum Testamentum. His third edition contained further revisions. There were also two more editions (1527,1535) each one a further refinement. But Erasmus was eventually given access to the Polyglott, which he compared with his text, and found that generally they were identical. The Polyglott had used many other manuscripts, but it made little difference.

Martin Luther used his second edition for his German translation (1522), and John Calvin used the first and second editions for his commentaries. William Tyndale used the third edition to make an English translation directly out of Greek. They had no reservations about this printed Greek text.

While Erasmus did not break away from the Catholic Church (just like John Wycliffe long before him) he rejected its teaching in favor of justification by grace through faith, and the importance of Scripture as the foundation of faith. He also criticized the Roman clergy and the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church made his writings “prohibited”.

After Erasmus, Robert Estienne (Stephanus) worked further on the Greek text of Erasmus, and used many more manuscripts. His 1550 edition became the Textus Receptus (Received Text) but only a few changes were made to that of Erasmus. Beza and the Elzevir brothers worked further on this text, and they had even more manuscripts. But in the end the text remained generally unaltered, and the differences are minor. The King James translators consulted all the editions, and used primarily those of Stephanus and Beza. So the Greek text of the KJV is a minor variation from the others, and Scrivener printed this text in 1881.

What is critical to understand is that the Received Text is representative of the entire body of Greek manuscripts. And the majority of manuscripts are a true representation of the original divinely inspired New Testament. Dean John William Burgon made this crystal clear in his book The Revision Revised.

I. And, first of all, the reader has need to be apprised (with reference to the first-named class of evidence) that most of our extant copies of the N. T. Scriptures are comparatively of recent date, ranging from the Xth to the XIVth century of our era. That these are in every instance copies of yet older manuscripts, is self-evident; and that in the main they represent faithfully the sacred autographs [originals] themselves, no reasonable person doubts.45 Still, it is undeniable that they are thus separated by about a thousand years from their inspired archetypes.(page 011)

Christians can therefore be completely confident that what they have in their hands is indeed the Word of God. And All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16,17)
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#2
Unbelieving critics have been scoffing at and mocking Desiderius (“Beloved”) Erasmus of Rotterdam for a long time. But he was the greatest scholars of his day, and Christians owe a lot to Erasmus.

2016 was the 500th anniversary of Erasmus first printed Greek text of the New Testament (1516 AD). “He dedicated his life to the study and publishing of the Bible and the writings from the earliest centuries of the Church. Erasmus was recognized throughout Europe as the greatest scholar of his day. The focus of his study was the Bible.” https://hc.edu/museums/dunham-bible...bits/erasmus-an-the-renaissance-of-the-bible/

Erasmus started out as an Augustinian monk and became a Catholic priest in 1492. But he left this occupation to become a scholar. Eventually he became a staunch Protestant, but wanted to reform the Catholic Church from within.

He went to England met John Colet at Oxford. Colet encouraged him to begin an intensive study of Greek. In 1504 he discovered a manuscript by Lorenzo Valla which compared the Latin Vulgate to the Greek, and showed the differences. This further encouraged Erasmus to intensify his biblical studies. In 1505 he printed Valla’s Adnotations Novum Testamentum, and in its preface wrote of the importance of recovering the true text of the Bible. Then he also made a Latin translation of the Greek New Testament, in order to compare it with the Latin Vulgate and show its errors. He also published many biblical works.

Erasmus wrote that “The most exalted aim in the revival of philosophical studies will be to obtain a knowledge of the pure and simple Christianity of the Bible.” (From Ad Servitium, as quoted by Jean D’Aubigne, History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, volume 1. New York: Robert Carter & Brothers, 1853, 124) Erasmus was eloquent, a great linguist, and knowledgeable in the classics and in history. But he had a kind of conversion from classical literature to sacred letters.

Around 1491, fifty years after Gutenberg invented printing, Johann Froben established a printing house in Basel, Switzerland. This is where Erasmus had his Greek New Testament printed in 1516. He used only seven Greek manuscripts, and translated Revelation out of the Vulgate, but also informed his readers that he had done this, since he could not avail himself of the Greek. He called his printed New Testament Novum Instrumetum (a new instrument), and also included his Latin translation in parallel (to correct the errors of Jerome’s Vulgate).

Why did he dedicate this volume to Pope Leo X? Because he wanted to deflect his critics, who were objecting to the exposure of the Vulgate’s errors. Pope Leo X wrote a very complimentary letter, which he included in the second edition of his work. The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) was missing from his first two editions, but was included in his third edition. He said he could not find it in the manuscripts at his disposal, but it was in the Latin Vulgate. This was also because of pressure from his critics (but this verse belongs in the Bible, it is found in several manuscripts, and without it the passage is incomplete and makes no sense).

The first edition of Erasmus’ Greek Testament was rushed in order to be ahead of the Complutensian Polyglott (1522). Therefore he began revising and correcting it immediately for printing errors, and his second edition was called Novum Testamentum. His third edition contained further revisions. There were also two more editions (1527,1535) each one a further refinement. But Erasmus was eventually given access to the Polyglott, which he compared with his text, and found that generally they were identical. The Polyglott had used many other manuscripts, but it made little difference.

Martin Luther used his second edition for his German translation (1522), and John Calvin used the first and second editions for his commentaries. William Tyndale used the third edition to make an English translation directly out of Greek. They had no reservations about this printed Greek text.

While Erasmus did not break away from the Catholic Church (just like John Wycliffe long before him) he rejected its teaching in favor of justification by grace through faith, and the importance of Scripture as the foundation of faith. He also criticized the Roman clergy and the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church made his writings “prohibited”.

After Erasmus, Robert Estienne (Stephanus) worked further on the Greek text of Erasmus, and used many more manuscripts. His 1550 edition became the Textus Receptus (Received Text) but only a few changes were made to that of Erasmus. Beza and the Elzevir brothers worked further on this text, and they had even more manuscripts. But in the end the text remained generally unaltered, and the differences are minor. The King James translators consulted all the editions, and used primarily those of Stephanus and Beza. So the Greek text of the KJV is a minor variation from the others, and Scrivener printed this text in 1881.

What is critical to understand is that the Received Text is representative of the entire body of Greek manuscripts. And the majority of manuscripts are a true representation of the original divinely inspired New Testament. Dean John William Burgon made this crystal clear in his book The Revision Revised.

I. And, first of all, the reader has need to be apprised (with reference to the first-named class of evidence) that most of our extant copies of the N. T. Scriptures are comparatively of recent date, ranging from the Xth to the XIVth century of our era. That these are in every instance copies of yet older manuscripts, is self-evident; and that in the main they represent faithfully the sacred autographs [originals] themselves, no reasonable person doubts.45 Still, it is undeniable that they are thus separated by about a thousand years from their inspired archetypes.(page 011)

Christians can therefore be completely confident that what they have in their hands is indeed the Word of God. And All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16,17)
Now I understand why you still believe in human freewill :D nevertheless, I greatly appreciate your work :)
 

tedincarolina

Active member
Jul 25, 2024
495
95
28
#3
Hi @Nehemiah6

I would think that to get a definitive answer to your question, you'd need to know about other scholars around in his day. I see you've given a fairly concise list of many of his travels, accomplishments and doctrinal convictions, but to what, or who, are you comparing these accomplishments and work of his life against? I'm not sure just listing these accomplishments really makes the case that he was one of the greatest scholars of his day. However, I do agree that his work did further the work of God's word going out into the world.

To whom can you compare Erasmus work?

I find this an interesting statement:
The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) was missing from his first two editions, but was included in his third edition. He said he could not find it in the manuscripts at his disposal, but it was in the Latin Vulgate.
He says that he couldn't find the Johannine Comma in any of his manuscripts that he had used to compile his work. A work which he used to show the errors of the Latin Vulgate. But then, based apparently solely on the fact that it was included in the Laten Vulgate, which his work showed contained many errors, he added the Johannine Comma. If that was the only source in which he found the Johannine Comma, why would he not consider that it was in error along with the rest of the errors he was claiming was in the Latin Vulgate?

That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. That a man produces a work to deny the accuracy of another work, but then uses the work that he is claiming has errors to support writing a passage in a manner that he was apparently only able to confirm in the work that he was correcting? Hmmm.


God bless you,
Ted
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#4
That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. That a man produces a work to deny the accuracy of another work, but then uses the work that he is claiming has errors to support writing a passage in a manner that he was apparently only able to confirm in the work that he was correcting? Hmmm.
Erasmus could distinguish between errors and non-errors. Everything is not erroneous in the Vulgate, and you can check it out for yourself. Had he access to more Greek documents, the issue would not have come up. There is more than enough external evidence (see below) and well and tremendous internal evidence:
External Support for the Johannine Comma
(from Scrivener’s Plain Introduction, Vol. 2, pp.401- 407. Scrivener was willing to give this up, in spite of the evidence, but others were not )
1. Codex Montfortianus (possibly Cod. Britannicus)
2. Evan. 61
3. Acts 34, Paul 40, Apoc. 92
4. Cod. Vat.-Ottob. 298 (Acts 162)
5. Acts 83 or 173 (margin of manuscript)
6. Cod. Ravianus, Evan. 110
7. Cod. Cav. (v. 8 precedes v. 7)
8. Cod. Wizanburg, 99 (v. 8 precedes v. 7)
9. Cod. m. tol. demid. (v. 8 precedes v. 7)
10. Unnamed (margin of manuscript)
11. leon. 1 (Spanish - in margin)
12. leon. 2 (Spanish)
13. ulm., Add. 11,852 (British Museum)
14. Wiseman’s Speculum m (Old Latin)
15. Wiseman’s r (Old Latin)
16. 49 out of every 50 copies of the Latin Vulgate (from the 9th century onwards)
17. Some Armenian codices
18. A few recent (17th century onwards) Slavonic copies
19. Greek Synopsis of Holy Scripture (4th or 5th century)
20. Cyprian (3rd century) – de eccles. unitate 5 – clear specific testimony quoted in Latin
21. Cyprian (3rd century) – Epistle to Jubaianus (73) – stronger specific testimony quoted in Latin
22. Priscillian (4th century) – Spanish – specific testimony (mentioned by Edward Hills)*
23. Idacius Clarus (4th century) – Spanish – specific testimony (mentioned by Edward Hills)*
24. Ps.-Athanasius (4th century)-- Disputation with Arius
25. Vigilius of Thapsus (5th century)
26. Eucherius (5th century)
27. Augustine (5th century) – contra Maximin. 22.
According to Edward F. Hills in The King James Version Defended (quoting Augustine from Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina, Vol. 42, col. 796) “Augustine was one of those who interpreted 1 Jn. 5:7 as referring to the Trinity. ‘If we wish to inquire about these things, what they signify, not absurdly does the Trinity suggest Itself, who is the one, only, true, and highest God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, concerning whom it could most truly be said, Three are Witnesses, and the Three are One...’ . (pp.210,211).
28. Victor Vitensis (5th century) -- “who records that the passage was insisted on in a Confession of Faith drawn up by Eugenius, bishop of Carthage [Africa] and 460 [persecuted] bishops in 484, and presented to the Arian Hunneric, king of the Vandals” (Arianism rejects the doctrine of the Trinity)
29. Fulgentius of Ruspe (6th century) – “in two places expressly appeal(s) to the ‘three Heavenly Witnesses’ as a genuine portion of St. John’s Epistle”
30. Cassiodorus (6th century) – “From that period the clause became well known in other regions of the West, and was in time generally accepted by the Latin Church”.
31. Attributed to Tertullian but unknown author – Prologus Galeatus in vii Epistolas Canonicas “in which the author complains of the omission of ver. 7, ‘ab infidelibus translatoribus’” or by unfaithful translators (9th century).
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,947
5,648
113
#5
Now I understand why you still believe in human freewill :D nevertheless, I greatly appreciate your work :)
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

tedincarolina

Active member
Jul 25, 2024
495
95
28
#6
External Support for the Johannine Comma
Hi @Nehemiah6

So why didn't he give one of those reasons for his change of heart?

Why would he not tell us that after reading the many, many, many source documents that you list, that he had changed his mind about it and rewrote that part of his translation work. I mean he did have a copy of the Acts of the Apostles, right? And I must confess that I have no idea what any of the other 26 source documents from which you claim we might understand that the present form of the passage in John is now correct. Now, that brings up the gist of the question here. For two printings, Erasmus had that passage of John translated incorrectly, right? So, how be it that you declare that his work is so perfect, when he himself had to go in and make changes to it? Was it perfect in it's first printing? Which one of Erasmus' writings was blasphemous to God by having error? The first printing or the third?

I mean, I just don't get it. How a man would spend all of this effort to try and prove that the Latin Vulgate had errors, but then use it as the source for making a change to his own translation work. But look, if you want to idolize a translation of God's word over all the many others, that's your choice.

God bless you,
Ted
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#7
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬
but people as fall back on their human will [the will of the flesh] are not continuing in the words of Christ [to the fullest degree] ...this is why so many are void of the truth and are not free indeed.

You understand dear brother I am not questioning their salvation or even their integrity.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
13,542
113
#9
he was the greatest scholars of his day, and Christians owe a lot to Erasmus.
from what i have heard, if i remember correctly, there was practically no other scholar in the entire Roman empire who understood Hebrew at the time of Erasmus. there can be no doubt he is highly respected by his peers and by history.

that being said, i have also heard from Jewish sources that he wasn't too great at Hebrew - though qualifying that assessment one has to take into account Erasmus was throughly Christian and in that respect believed himself to understand the Tanakh better than any Jew, on principle, because Erasmus understood the Tanakh to speak of Jesus Christ, as any studied Christian does, while every Jew denying Christ denies also that their scripture testifies of Him, as a matter of course.

Hebrew was of course, not his native tongue, and studying it at his time & with his beliefs was not straightforward. so there is a small bit of context and conflict when discussing his work, but no questions regarding the greatness of his contribution.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
13,542
113
#10
Never heard of her.
Erasmus was an amazing, brilliant man.

More trusted than the pope.
Spurgeon x1,000
Bruce Metzger is an absolute nobody compared to him.
Erasmus is right next to Augustine in terms of respect, accreditation and accomplishment.

if i understand correctly, that's what @Nehemiah6 is trying to draw our attention to, and he is not incorrect, as far as my own personal education informs me.

Erasmus is tops. So much Erasmus love, difficult to express ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#11
Erasmus is tops. So much Erasmus love, difficult to express ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Luther, Calvin, and Tyndale also loved him. The Reformers had no problem with his scholarship, and at the same time Pope Leo X was very complimentary. If anyone wants to know how Erasmus regarded the Catholic clergy, read "In Praise of Folly" ( MORIAE ENCOMIUM).
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
13,542
113
#12
Luther, Calvin, and Tyndale also loved him. The Reformers had no problem with his scholarship, and at the same time Pope Leo X was very complimentary. If anyone wants to know how Erasmus regarded the Catholic clergy, read "In Praise of Folly" ( MORIAE ENCOMIUM).
Absolut

Erasmus did not pull punches, and was thorough in every argument he undertook, as he knew how to be.

Of course no one but God is good, but one is very hard pressed to find error in his work. let God alone judge this, our elder brother Erasmus
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,947
5,648
113
#13
but people as fall back on their human will [the will of the flesh] are not continuing in the words of Christ [to the fullest degree] ...this is why so many are void of the truth and are not free indeed.

You understand dear brother I am not questioning their salvation or even their integrity.
No brother it’s not for us to question each other or judge each other saved or not saved but to share the truth of Christ with others

“And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:24-26‬ ‭NIV‬‬

That’s a real thing a real situation many people are in . if you notice however some people react to the truth as if it’s a lie ? This was a warning 1900 years ago

“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

And this also a warning to the church of believers from the beginning

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

This is the truth

““You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.””
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭NIV‬‬

thin is how we begin to come to know the truth and begin to find freedom from sins dominion

“To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.””
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭61:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

when people really decide tomlewrn what it is Jesus was teaching us to believe and do , many people I’ve known in my own life are pleasantly surprised that fundamentally he is teaching us to be decent people to one another and act as if we care for each other in his honor .

and there really is no list of rules but it’s an understanding that’s being Imparted by faith . Jesus the only begotten son is giving the ones who believe his testimony about God , the true understanding of God his true and revealed judgements for all mankind wherby we may live and not die . Imparting then through hearing him and believing what he’s said about God

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth….. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s all about the gospel what Jesus said to us and what he did for us together his word and his blood are the everlasting covenant

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( the gospel is the truth that saves )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the thought isn’t that I’m doing all I can without God ………it’s I believe the gospel and will give all I am to God and make every effort I have in me to follow where he leads me accepting his gift of the spirit and following where he leads ….

the idea isn’t “ I said I believe now I don’t need to do anything he commanded believers to do “ it’s the opposite

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have no place questioning anyone’s salvation or relationship with God , but in a Bible discussion forum I think we have a place discussing what the Bible teaches v what man has taught for centuries now that’s opposed to it

at he bi ke teaches us not to condemn or judge someone else relationship with God , sometimes talking about what he really said in the gospel offends people and becomes an issue and makes them feel attacked like someone’s judging them but it’s just discussing what the lord said in the gospel to believers
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,947
5,648
113
#14
Erasmus was an amazing, brilliant man.

More trusted than the pope.
Spurgeon x1,000
Bruce Metzger is an absolute nobody compared to him.
Erasmus is right next to Augustine in terms of respect, accreditation and accomplishment.

if i understand correctly, that's what @Nehemiah6 is trying to draw our attention to, and he is not incorrect, as far as my own personal education informs me.

Erasmus is tops. So much Erasmus love, difficult to express ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Does his doctrine line up with Christs ?

I’ve never heard of him lol but you giving him an approval makes me interested

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Thats why I asked if his ideas and beliefs and doctrine lines up with what Jesus taught. I’ve noticed usually these men everyone talks of and studies mostly line up with Jesus but then at points they don’t bit the other guy does and he doesn’t at some of the points the other former guy did agree with

sort of like they all have some good ideas and good points to adopt , but then they make a few conclusions that part from his own so as if there is food in then all usually but also some conclusions made by them which aren’t good to adopt . This is only what I’ve found in the few I’ve looked into always hear names of great theologians so eventually gotta cheek them out especially if they have a good reference
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#15
Does his doctrine line up with Christs ?
Yes it does. "As he read Luther’s writings, at least those prior to The Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520), Erasmus found much to admire, and he could even describe Luther, in a letter to Pope Leo X, as “a mighty trumpet of Gospel truth.” -- Britannica.

One does not speak of Gospel truth unless one believes Gospel truth. Erasmus believed (1) that justification was by grace through faith (like Luther), and (2) that the Bible was the sole authority for Christian beliefs (like all the Reformers).

We all do not necessarily support Reformed Theology, but all Christians can agree on "The Five Solas". I trust you are familiar with them.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#16
Yes it does. "As he read Luther’s writings, at least those prior to The Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520), Erasmus found much to admire, and he could even describe Luther, in a letter to Pope Leo X, as “a mighty trumpet of Gospel truth.” -- Britannica.

One does not speak of Gospel truth unless one believes Gospel truth. Erasmus believed (1) that justification was by grace through faith (like Luther), and (2) that the Bible was the sole authority for Christian beliefs (like all the Reformers).

We all do not necessarily support Reformed Theology, but all Christians can agree on "The Five Solas". I trust you are familiar with them.
Yea I was asking if the things this guy taught line up with what Jesus taught in the gospel

Justification by grace through faith “

doesnt really tell me what he taught that means a lot of different things to people some think faith means “ now I don’t need to repent and obey God , I have faith now “

Others look to Gods word to define faith

to one man grace means “ nothing else applies “ it’s the great eraser of Gods word , to another man he looks to the scriptire to define Gods grace

was curious how his teachings compare to jesus teachings
 

Evmur

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#17
Yes it does. "As he read Luther’s writings, at least those prior to The Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520), Erasmus found much to admire, and he could even describe Luther, in a letter to Pope Leo X, as “a mighty trumpet of Gospel truth.” -- Britannica.

One does not speak of Gospel truth unless one believes Gospel truth. Erasmus believed (1) that justification was by grace through faith (like Luther), and (2) that the Bible was the sole authority for Christian beliefs (like all the Reformers).

We all do not necessarily support Reformed Theology, but all Christians can agree on "The Five Solas". I trust you are familiar with them.
Luther and Erasmus fell out on the issue of whether salvation was by grace only through faith [as Luther] or whether [as Erasmus] faith and human effort, works of charity etc.

And they fell out bigly over whether man's will was in bondage before salvation [Luther] or whether he could choose freely [Erasmus] this was the issue upon which they parted and is the issue upon which the Reformation turned.
 

Evmur

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#18
No brother it’s not for us to question each other or judge each other saved or not saved but to share the truth of Christ with others

“And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:24-26‬ ‭NIV‬‬

That’s a real thing a real situation many people are in . if you notice however some people react to the truth as if it’s a lie ? This was a warning 1900 years ago

“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

And this also a warning to the church of believers from the beginning

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

This is the truth

““You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.””
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭NIV‬‬

thin is how we begin to come to know the truth and begin to find freedom from sins dominion

“To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.””
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭61:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

when people really decide tomlewrn what it is Jesus was teaching us to believe and do , many people I’ve known in my own life are pleasantly surprised that fundamentally he is teaching us to be decent people to one another and act as if we care for each other in his honor .

and there really is no list of rules but it’s an understanding that’s being Imparted by faith . Jesus the only begotten son is giving the ones who believe his testimony about God , the true understanding of God his true and revealed judgements for all mankind wherby we may live and not die . Imparting then through hearing him and believing what he’s said about God

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth….. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s all about the gospel what Jesus said to us and what he did for us together his word and his blood are the everlasting covenant

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( the gospel is the truth that saves )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the thought isn’t that I’m doing all I can without God ………it’s I believe the gospel and will give all I am to God and make every effort I have in me to follow where he leads me accepting his gift of the spirit and following where he leads ….

the idea isn’t “ I said I believe now I don’t need to do anything he commanded believers to do “ it’s the opposite

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have no place questioning anyone’s salvation or relationship with God , but in a Bible discussion forum I think we have a place discussing what the Bible teaches v what man has taught for centuries now that’s opposed to it

at he bi ke teaches us not to condemn or judge someone else relationship with God , sometimes talking about what he really said in the gospel offends people and becomes an issue and makes them feel attacked like someone’s judging them but it’s just discussing what the lord said in the gospel to believers
You can hear this stuff preached in almost every evangelical pulpit every week ... but the vast multitude of believers neither pay heed to it nor are they free indeed.

... I don't blame the people I blame the teaching. It is backslidden preaching, preaching man's will, man's choosings.

And if you say they are the preachings of Christ, why do the multitudes not flock to it? why is there so little discipleship?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#19
Luther and Erasmus fell out on the issue of whether salvation was by grace only through faith [as Luther] or whether [as Erasmus] faith and human effort, works of charity etc.
Can you provide actual documentation to back this up?