Did Those Who Were Never of The Elect Ever Have Free-Will?

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M

MerSee

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John 5:26-30
26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. 29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. 30 I cannot of myself do any thing. As I hear, so I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
 
JohnRH

JohnRH

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MerSee said:
John 5:26-30
26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. 29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. 30 I cannot of myself do any thing. As I hear, so I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
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Elect by who for what?
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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MerSee said:
Did Those Who Were Never of The Elect Ever Have Free-Will?
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Hello MerSee, I suppose the first thing that needs to be considered is what the definition of "free will" is (so that we can all be on the same page).

It seems to me that our wills should be considered free whenever we are able to choose what we want most at a given moment in time.

So, unless it can be shown that an unsaved person is somehow being ~forced~ to continue to walk the "broad way" ~against~ his/her will, then it seems to me that their "free will" must be intact, even when the choice that they make is a horrible one.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
​
Matthew 7​
13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. ​
14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ​
​
 
M

MerSee

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JohnRH said:
Elect by who for what?
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Collosians 3:11-15
11 Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put ye on therefore, as the elect of God, holy, and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience. 13 Bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if any have a complaint against another: even as the Lord hath forgiven you, so do you also. 14 But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection: 15 And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful.
 
M

MerSee

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Deuteronomy said:
Hello MerSee, I suppose the first thing that needs to be considered is what the definition of "free will" is (so that we can all be on the same page).

It seems to me that our wills should be considered free whenever we are able to choose what we want most at a given moment in time.

So, unless it can be shown that an unsaved person is somehow being ~forced~ to continue to walk the "broad way" ~against~ his/her will, then it seems to me that their "free will" must be intact, even when the choice that they make is a horrible one.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
​
Matthew 7​
13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. ​
14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ​
​
Click to expand...
Are you claiming those who are not of the elect ultimately used their free-will to get what they wanted at any given moment?
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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MerSee said:
John 5:26-30
26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. 29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. 30 I cannot of myself do any thing. As I hear, so I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
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I actually do not see anywhere in these verses that those who did good and those who did evil were made to do what they did or they did them because they wanted to do it that way. It's just a blank statement of people who either did good or did evil.
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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MerSee said:
Are you claiming those who are not of the elect ultimately used their free-will to get what they wanted at any given moment?
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Hello again MerSee, no, not exactly. My point (concerning my understanding of free will) was that "free will" is something that a person (ANY person) possesses whenever they are able to choose what they desire or want the most. So, if a person (who knows the truth about who Jesus really is) continues to reject Him as their Lord and Savior, I believe that they do so willingly and freely (because they love themselves and their sin FAR more than they love Him).

Do you believe otherwise? If so, what do you believe instead, and why :unsure:

Thanks :)

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
 
M

MerSee

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Jan 13, 2024
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#10
Deuteronomy said:
Hello again MerSee, no, not exactly. My point (concerning my understanding of free will) was that "free will" is something that a person (ANY person) possesses whenever they are able to choose what they desire or want the most. So, if a person (who knows the truth about who Jesus really is) continues to reject Him as their Lord and Savior, I believe that they do so willingly and freely (because they love themselves and their sin FAR more than they love Him).

Do you believe otherwise? If so, what do you believe instead, and why :unsure:

Thanks :)

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
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I believe God gave free-will to those who would never be of the elect.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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my will was not truly free until Christ set me free :)
 
posthuman

posthuman

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no one who has any experience or innate desires has a will that is untouched and uninfluenced by them.

:coffee::unsure:
 
Magenta

Magenta

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posthuman said:
my will was not truly free until Christ set me free :)
Click to expand...

John 8:36 plus Romans 8:2 If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.
:)
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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MerSee said:
I believe God gave free-will to those who would never be of the elect.
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I agree with you about that, but what of the elect then (in regard to their "free-will") :unsure:

Do you believe that God perhaps restricts it/their freedom to choose in some manner, perhaps even going so far as to remove the ability (to one degree or another) of the elect to choose freely?

Thanks!

~David
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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Hello again @MerSee, I suppose (since we are already at it) that I should also ask you about life in Heaven and/or on the New Earth in the eternity to come. We will all be like God when we are there in the sense that we will never sin, or even have the desire to sin, and if so, how can that be :unsure: Will God need to take away the freedom that He gave us to choose between good and evil, or will we always choose to do that which is right/good for a different reason :unsure:

Finally, what about God Himself? He never sins, nor can He even be tempted to sin .. e.g. James 1:13. How is that possible? With those things in mind, here is my final (crazy) question of the night, does God have free will, or does He not :unsure:

Thanks again :giggle:

~David
 
ZNP

ZNP

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#17
Sep 14, 2020
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MerSee said:
John 5:26-30
26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. 29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. 30 I cannot of myself do any thing. As I hear, so I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
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What stands out to me is those that "shall hear the voice of the Son of God". We have been charged to preach the gospel and to be witnesses of the Lord Jesus. Some will hear the word and be saved.

We have free will to obey the Lord's command or to reject it or ignore it. We have free will to invest the talents the Lord has given us or to bury them in the backyard.

We have the freewill to fill our vessels with oil or to be foolish and waste our time on earth.

It seems to me the entire doctrine of no one having free will and all those who are saved being predestined, is just an excuse by the evil and lazy servants to not do what they Lord has commanded us to do.

Obviously if this doctrine is designed to be a fig leaf for people being lazy that is easy to see. But why are they "evil". How is this a fig leaf for someone who is evil.? That is simple, if we are predestined for heaven or hell and there is nothing that we can do one way or the other, then that would make God unrighteous to send some to heaven while others go to hell. As a result those that subscribe to this doctrine find it very difficult to believe there is a hell. This is just like the temptation "did God say" because if you question whether or not God is righteous and whether or not there is a hell then you will question half the Bible.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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#18
Everyone has free will
Israel had free will when they left Egypt. And chose to deny and reject god at every turn. So God swore in his wrath they would not enter his rest.

Not sure why free will is so hated by some.
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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MerSee said:
John 5:26-30
26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. 29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. 30 I cannot of myself do any thing. As I hear, so I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Click to expand...
All done willingly from our, my Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, born of the Virgin Mary, not of man. From the tribe of Judah. (Hebrews 7:11-12)
It, is a choice to this present day, to choose to believe God willingly, for us in Son as risen for us to walk new in, at least me this is real, after a long walk off a short pier, dying daily to the first born self.
If, God is not leading, then it does not mean a thing. still learning daily in truth Love and mercy given me, that does not quit from God Father of the risen Jesus for me. From people that, is opposite. God Judged all through Son, took away sin from his sight, separated sin and death by Son's done work on that cross, For the purpose to now

Psalm 100:4

New King James Version



4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving,
And into His courts with praise.
Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.


Psalm 103:12

New King James Version



12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.


Ezekiel 36:26

New King James Version



26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

All completed in Son. Now is risen for us t recieve the risen Life in us and then work through us, by his risen Life to us. Not of any self work, if is or of others, then man boasts,. as today there is a lot of boasting. Seeking humility in being freed, thanking God in God's timing for me to see clearer, and remain humble in it
 
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