Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Cameron143

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So, it is possible to imitate Jesus and Paul without them taking over our bodies and behaving like themselves through us. Now, what would be the next question a person trying to imitate Christ outwardly, without Christ within might ask?
And I disagree. Not every act a child does to outwardly imitate his parents must be self-centred. That is an opinion you gravitate to because of your distorted view of anthropology.
I never said that outward behavior couldn't be imitated, as you well know. And I believe as I do because of what I believe the Bible reveals.
 

Cameron143

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Was that a "No". to my question, asking whether you mean -

No one walking in the Spirit insists on his own preferences, but is subjecting his choices to the choices of the Holy Spirit. Trusting God...walking by faith... is a choice... to lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways to acknowledge Him...to accept the choices of the Holy Spirit as better than your own preferences when those two conflict ?

I am married and that does not mean that I don't keep on making decisions about how to work out my relationship with my wife? Maybe your marriage is different.
God's choices are always better than ours. But when someone is actually yielded to God, there is no choice being made.
Do you know what it is to be yoked to Christ? You can choose to be yoked or unyoked, but while you are yoked you simply move as He moves. You have already made the decision to yield. You don't make a decision every moment to yield. The next choice you will make after being yoked is deciding to be unyoked.

In marrying your wife, you can became yoked. Do you decide daily to stay yoked?

Living life in your own strength must be very burdensome.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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I never said that outward behavior couldn't be imitated, as you well know. And I believe as I do because of what I believe the Bible reveals.
You said -
Cameron143 said:
"How are you going to imitate God apart from God living in and through you? You can imitate God? How? Like the way you show disdain for people? Is that walking in the Spirit?"

And this was in response to studier saying -

studier said
"Our Lord: Read and do My Word such as:

NKJ Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma."

So, you implied that it is impossible to imitate God apart from God living in and through you., and you were claiming this as a way to reject the idea that we can choose to imitate God.

I am showing that one can obey Paul's injunction without God unilaterally taking over our bodies and souls and doing ALL the living through us. And a responsible, sentient being obeying involves a CHOICE.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Some "systems" assert people are BORN completely corrupted and totally depraved.
And then there are those who believe the Bible.

Isaiah 48:8
You have never heard; you have never understood; for a long time your ears have not
been open. For I knew how deceitful you are; you have been called a rebel from birth.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; the liars go astray from birth.
 

Cameron143

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You are claiming that to imitate one must exactly replicate on every level. That is not what imitate means.
I'm just pointing out that imitating behavior is not the same as having identical motivations.
Since God not only considers behavior but also the intentions of the heart, what men consider acceptable is often unacceptable to God.
The Bible is replete with examples of God chiding His people for drawing nigh with their lips while their hearts remain far from Him.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Why do you think Paul's audience was just diaspora Israel?
Because it can be a novel and entertaining idea to give someone something to argue about.

Some people in their flesh are argumentative.

Just maybe?
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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And then there are those who believe the Bible.

Isaiah 48:8
You have never heard; you have never understood; for a long time your ears have not
been open. For I knew how deceitful you are; you have been called a rebel from birth.


Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; the liars go astray from birth.
Those verses were being directed towards a certain type of bad person. Not all men.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Y
You said -
Cameron143 said:
"How are you going to imitate God apart from God living in and through you? You can imitate God? How? Like the way you show disdain for people? Is that walking in the Spirit?"

And this was in response to studier saying -

studier said
"Our Lord: Read and do My Word such as:

NKJ Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma."

So, you implied that it is impossible to imitate God apart from God living in and through you., and you were claiming this as a way to reject the idea that we can choose to imitate God.

I am showing that one can obey Paul's injunction without God unilaterally taking over our bodies and souls and doing ALL the living through us. And a responsible, sentient being obeying involves a CHOICE.
First of all, the passage is speaking about Christians, who have the Holy Spirit. Second, do you really believe someone can love as Christ loves apart from Christ? If so, there must be a lot of people on this site choosing not to.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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... do you really believe someone can love as Christ loves apart from Christ? If so, there must be a lot of people on this site choosing not to.
Some believe the natural man can choose as Christ did, as if they were not in Adam. They are stuck on a false doctrine.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Some believe the natural man can choose as Christ did, as if they were not in Adam. They are stuck on a false doctrine.
True enough. But why does a Christian even want to make a choice when the Spirit can make them perfectly for us. Is there a better or more pleasing life we are going to live than the one Christ can produce in us?
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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The natural man is stuck in that he leaves himself with nothing but the choice between accepting Christ's death for himself or death for himself. And it is God's grace that man has, indeed, been left with that choice.
 

selahsays

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May 31, 2023
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I‘ve found the answer. :)
There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

- 1 Corinthians 15:40-46
 

selahsays

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May 31, 2023
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The natural man is stuck in that he leaves himself with nothing but the choice between accepting Christ's death for himself or death for himself. And it is God's grace that man has, indeed, been left with that choice.
Thank you, sis.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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What exactly is “the natural man”?
Born once, and in need of a spiritual rebirth. Otherwise, will die twice. Those born twice die but once.

The natural man has been described in this thread with Biblical passages for many days going on weeks and likely months.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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…but wasn’t @notmyown referring to faithful people?—those who have the faith to know that our Father will always be faithful to keep His promises to those who love Him?
No. That was not involved in the context leading up to notmyown's comment. Actually, Ito be honest, I am not sure whether notmyown was agreeing with me or with my interlocutor.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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I‘ve found the answer. :)
There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

- 1 Corinthians 15:40-46
Natural man and natural body are not th same thing. The natural body is the physical body we are born with that is enlivened by the blood. Remove the blood and the body is dead.
The spiritual body is the physical body clothed upon with the heavenly body received at physical death. Like Jesus' resurrection body of flesh and bone without any need for blood, but enlivened by the spirit, our resurrection bodies will also be enlivened directly from the spirit: a spiritual body. The seed sown is physical, and the plant that comes up after the seed dies is physical. So too, the natural body and spiritual body are both physical, but the latter has greater glory.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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The natural man is stuck in that he leaves himself with nothing but the choice between accepting Christ's death for himself or death for himself. And it is God's grace that man has, indeed, been left with that choice.
No. The natural man is the man (whether regenerate or not) whose physical body, with its instincts and emotions, is driving him for the time being. His mind is set on what his instincts and physical appetites consider important.

The spiritual man is the man (whether regenerate or not) whose spirit, with it's focus on abstract characteristics like love, peace, and truth, is driving him for the time being. That man can be discerning the evidence for God and be trusting in the light he has from God, the Light that lights every man who comes into the world. That man can please God by choosing to put his faith in the light he has been thus far given, even if that light does not yet include the gospel.

Rom. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel ...

26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Rom. 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.