Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[studier]

Natural Revelation instills nothing supernaturally within men. The whole point behind Natural Revelation is that God reveals truths to men by his EXTERNAL creation.

Well, someone around here has to post actual Scripture. Unless otherwise noted, I'm using BDAG Lexicon to define some words:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

• revealed from heaven = to cause someth. to be fully known, reveal, disclose, bring to light, make fully known

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

• known: pert. to being familiar or known: known; pert. to being able to be known, capable of being known, intelligible
• manifest (adjective) in them: pert. to being evident so as to be readily known, visible, clear, plainly to be seen, open, plain, evident, known;
• God has shown it to them: to cause to become known, disclose, show, make known

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

• clearly seen: perceive, notice, also of inward seeing; God’s invisible attributes are perceived with the eye of reason in the things that have been made Ro 1:20 (on the wordplay cp. Ps.-Aristot....
• understood: to grasp or comprehend someth. on the basis of careful thought, perceive, apprehend, understand, gain an insight into; to think over with care, consider, take note of

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

• knew God: to arrive at a knowledge of someone or someth., know, know about, make acquaintance of; to acquire information through some means, learn (of), ascertain, find out; to grasp the significance or meaning of someth., understand, comprehend

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

• changed: to exchange one thing for another, exchange

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

• exchanged: exchange someth. for someth. the truth of God (=the true God) for a lie (=a false god Ro 1:25.
• worshipped: to show reverence to, worship
• served: serve, in our lit. only of the carrying out of religious duties, esp. of a cultic nature, by human beings

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

• did not like to: to draw a conclusion about worth on the basis of testing, prove, approve,
• retain: to possess or contain, have, own; to stand in a close relationship to someone, have, have as; to experience someth., have; to be closely associated,
• knowledge: in accordance w. (real) knowledge Ro 10:2; L-S Lexicon: full knowledge, N.T.; my studies: experiential/practical/usable knowledge

I'll leave you to do your own work to explain this away. There's nothing I can do for you if you freely choose to explain away all of this information and the repetitive emphasis of different words showing that this is substantially more than God simply leaving men on their own to know of His existence, eternal power and divinity.

• His existence:
  • is intelligible
  • a clear thing in them
  • God made it known to them
  • it's clearly seen
  • it's comprehended on the basis of careful thought
  • they arrived at a knowledge of God
  • they exchanged God for His creatures
  • they exchanged the true God for false gods
  • they revered and served God's creatures
  • they saw no value in experiencing a relationship with God in accordance with real/full/usable knowledge

That's a lot of mental and sense faculties for a corpse.

Knowing and understanding what God made clear IN them and made known to them, they simply saw no value in having an experiential relationship with God and they chose to exchange God for God's creatures. This is far beyond being EXTERNAL as you erroneously push.

As history and Paul's language shows, some did see the value of having a relationship with God and did not exchange Him for His creatures.

 

[HeIsHere]

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Did you notice that the passage does NOT state they were born that way but it was a process over time!

Some "systems" assert people are BORN completely corrupted and totally depraved.

 

[Genez]

NO...SAVING GRACE does far more than put the dead on life support. It actually raises the Dead.

It had to start somewhere.
Spiritual Life support.

And, not all become saved after being administered saving grace!

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

Titus 2:11​

That is why everyone who will be condemned to the Lake of Fire are to be held accountable and without excuse!

Come on board and out of the raging waters.
For some preach dogmatism as if they are raging mad!


awake o sleeper - Ephesians 5:14

 

[studier]

You, the wanna-be great and extraordinary expositor of all scriptur, are ignorant of what happened in the Garden after the Fall? And besides, I didn't ask you in my 8881 to read any of my expository comments. I asked you for your interpretation of the Two Seeds among Three moral entities. Shirley, you can handle this, can't you?

Ad hominem now. It's inevitable for all of us I'm afraid and most certainly repetitive in these discussions.

Then a challenge to interpret pointless gibberish put forth as "pure exegesis" that nobody else has interpreted correctly. And I'm the wanna-be...

 

[studier]

Did you notice that the passage does NOT state they were born that way but it was a process over time!

Some "systems" assert people are BORN completely corrupted and totally depraved.

I did. Thanks for pointing it out.

A degenerative process seems clear. I've always enjoyed 1:28 which most literally says they saw no value in having God in experiential knowledge/relationship > God handed them over to a mind of no value - a worthless mind. It seems God sees value in minds that value Him.

 

[HeIsHere]

I did. Thanks for pointing it out.

A degenerative process seems clear. I've always enjoyed 1:28 which most literally says they saw no value in having God in experiential knowledge/relationship > God handed them over to a mind of no value - a worthless mind. It seems God sees value in minds that value Him.

Yes indeed, I was speaking to the audience via you, I knew, you knew, some of us on here thankfully are in the know. Lol

It was an awesome post.

 

[studier]

Thou dost complain too much -- all without warrant. My question is not biblical enough for you? Too simple-minded and systematic for you? How about Eph 2:8-9, that faith is God's gift? And how about the confidence (faith) we have that comes through Christ (2Cor 3:4)? Even God's great and gracious gift of Reconciliation comes through Christ (2Cor 5:18). (Of course, this explains how God reconciled Eve through the promised Seed that would come from her--not Adam!)

Or don't you like the fact that Salvation is a gift that God freely gives to whom he chooses? Is the giver of great gifts duty-bound to give his gifts to everyone in the world? If so, how could he freely give them? Does he not have a right to do with his gifts as he chooses? Is not the Holy Spirit a great and awesome and indescribable gift of God (Act 2:38; 8:20; 11:17, etc.)? |But note carefully to whom the gift of the Spirit is limited in the first passage! The gift is not given to each and every person in the world, is it? Not exactly a universal gift! But it gets even worse for you NR: Act 2:38 also doesn't say that God gives his precious gift of the Holy Spirit to anyone who chooses to call upon his name either, does it!? And this makes sense to me, since who of us called upon the name of the Lord to initiate our physical birth?

Mr. Studier, sir: Truly it is written of people like yourself that "the emperor has no clothes".

You simply put forth way too much error to deal with it all. There was another guy I dealt with in a secular forum some years ago and finally summarized his activity as throwing a bunch of ____ against the wall and expecting someone else to clean it up.

I like W. C. Fields' analysis of tactics like yours: 'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with _______.'

I think Rom1 is done and your corpse concept can be seen for the error it is. History shows us you'll likely not engage with actual interpretation of Scripture, so all done there.

Re: Faith as a gift, it's an interesting one. Would you like to start with Eph2 and we take one at a time in an orderly fashion? Or would you prefer to continue slinging bizarre analogies and purported "pure exegesis" and dance away from Scripture with made up diversionary, proprietary insights as usual?

 

[selahsays]

You simply put forth way too much error to deal with it all. There was another guy I dealt with in a secular forum some years ago and finally summarized his activity as throwing a bunch of ____ against the wall and expecting someone else to clean it up.

I like W. C. Fields' analysis of tactics like yours: 'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with _______.'

I think Rom1 is done and your corpse concept can be seen for the error it is. History shows us you'll likely not engage with actual interpretation of Scripture, so all done there.

Re: Faith as a gift, it's an interesting one. Would you like to start with Eph2 and we take one at a time in an orderly fashion? Or would you prefer to continue slinging bizarre analogies and purported "pure exegesis" and dance away from Scripture with made up diversionary, proprietary insights as usual?

Yes, I wish people would stop trying so hard to appear intelligent and just explain things clearly with the intention of teaching others. I mean, what’s the point?

 

[Genez]

Did you notice that the passage does NOT state they were born that way but it was a process over time!

Some "systems" assert people are BORN completely corrupted and totally depraved.

Just as Satan was not created as he turned himself into by evil choices.

It says God handed them over to the desire of their hearts.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity
for the degrading of their bodies with one another. Romans 1:24​

And what was their desire of their hearts?
It was the invisible fallen angels who worked with and inspired them, by provided them with lies that they accepted as a means to suppress the truth God had made apparent to them.

Why homosexuality in what they changed to?

Genesis 6:1-2.
That passage reveals that angels had been originally created with the ability to sexually reproduce. (can explain later why it was so)

1~~Now it came to pass,
when mankind {literally 'adam - came to be used for 'mankind'}
had begun to 'become numerous'/multiply
on the face of the ground {adamah},
and daughters/'beautiful women' had been born unto them . . .​

​

2~~that the {fallen} angels
{beni ha Elohiym idiom: literally sons of 'elohiym/gods}
kept watching the daughters of mankind . . .
that they were very beautiful . . .
and they took/'seized passionately' to them women {'ishshah}
{here is a masculine plural suffix signifying 'it happened
but was irregular'} of all whom they examined and selected.

{Note: 'Beni ha Elohiym' literally means 'sons of Gods'. 'Beni' means sons or children. Ha is 'of the'. And Elohiym is the Plural of God - Gods - meaning the Godhead. One in essence . . . three in personalities. 'Beni ha Elohiym' is used four times in the Old Testament and it always refers to angels - Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 and here.}
​

​

​

Those angels that fell? What became of them?​

God locked them in dungeons of darkness below the earth.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, ​

putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not ​

spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, ​

but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others." 2 Peter 2:4-5​

God leaves us in His Word divine hints...
To be later disclosed at right times in history according to His plan!

grace and peace .......

 

[studier]

Yes, I wish people would stop trying so hard to appear intelligent and just explain things clearly with the intention of teaching others. I mean, what’s the point?

It's difficult to stay on track here. The percentage of type used actually working through Scripture must be horribly low.

 

[SeedofPromise7]

Romans 1:18-32 reading within the context to whom it was written, Paul writing to the saints in Rome, these saints being Israelites of the dispersion

“21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds,
and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

up until this time, we know that nobody had known the God of Israel except to whom He made a covenant, the Israelites, who turned their backs from the Law and began worshipping the canaanite gods asteroth, baal,molech,ect idolatry

“Neither said they, Where is the LORD that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, that led us through the wilderness, through a land of deserts and of pits, through a land of drought, and of the shadow of death, through a land that no man passed through, and where no man dwelt?
7And I brought you into a plentiful country, to eat the fruit thereof and the goodness thereof; but when ye entered, ye defiled my land, and made mine heritage an abomination.
8The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
Jeremiah2:6-8

“6The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. 7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. 9And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jeremiah 3:6-9

“26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, COVENANTBREAKERS, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 1:26:32

Very important to acknowledge the word Paul used, “Covenantbreakers” which can only describe Israelites, of which were given over to their strange gods, divorced of God and as punishment taken into captivity by the Assyrians, scattered throughout the “NATIONS” and of these Paul is describing, Romans who were saved by grace, of Christ Jesus, justified by faith snd called back to their God, Yahweh of hosts, God of Israel

 

[HeIsHere]

Romans 1:18-32 reading within the context to whom it was written, Paul writing to the saints in Rome, these saints being Israelites of the dispersion

“21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds,
and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

up until this time, we know that nobody had known the God of Israel except to whom He made a covenant, the Israelites, who turned their backs from the Law and began worshipping the canaanite gods asteroth, baal,molech,ect idolatry

“Neither said they, Where is the LORD that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, that led us through the wilderness, through a land of deserts and of pits, through a land of drought, and of the shadow of death, through a land that no man passed through, and where no man dwelt?
7And I brought you into a plentiful country, to eat the fruit thereof and the goodness thereof; but when ye entered, ye defiled my land, and made mine heritage an abomination.
8The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
Jeremiah2:6-8

“6The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. 7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. 9And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jeremiah 3:6-9

“26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, COVENANT BREAKERS, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 1:26:32

Very important to acknowledge the word Paul used, “Covenantbreakers” which can only describe Israelites, of which were given over to their strange gods, divorced of God and as punishment taken into captivity by the Assyrians, scattered throughout the “NATIONS” and of these Paul is describing, Romans who were saved by grace, of Christ Jesus, justified by faith and called back to their God, Yahweh of hosts, God of Israel

Thank you, makes sense since it is tied into audience relevance.

 

[Rufus]

I think they wanted out long before they were out, but salvation is certainly all of God.

Yes, the idol worshipers cried out to one one god or another to free them from their slavery (not to be confused with enslavement to their own sins), but it appears they changed their mind quickly after Pharaoh doubled down on their misery by forcing them to more labor and requiring them to be as productive as they were previously. That's sense I get from this passage:

Ex 14:10-12
10 As Pharaoh approached, the Israelites looked up, and there were the Egyptians, marching after them. They were terrified and cried out to the LORD. 11 They said to Moses, "Was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die? What have you done to us by bringing us out of Egypt? 12 Didn't we say to you in Egypt, 'Leave us alone; let us serve the Egyptians'? It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert!
NIV

So, this passage betrays a mindset that the Hebrews had while they were still in Egypt -- probably as soon as Pharaoh burdened the Hebrews with more work! Note the very disgruntled attitude of the Hebrew foreman after they complained to Pharaoh. Even Moses joined in with their complaint:

Ex 5:19-23
19 The Israelite foremen realized they were in trouble when they were told, "You are not to reduce the number of bricks required of you for each day." 20 When they left Pharaoh, they found Moses and Aaron waiting to meet them, 21 and they said, "May the LORD look upon you and judge you! You have made us a stench to Pharaoh and his officials and have put a sword in their hand to kill us."

22 Moses returned to the LORD and said, "O Lord, why have you brought trouble upon this people? Is this why you sent me? 23 Ever since I went to Pharaoh to speak in your name, he has brought trouble upon this people, and you have not rescued your people at all."
NIV

Even Moses had not come to realize at that time that God's thoughts and his ways are not like man's!

 

[studier]

Romans 1:18-32 reading within the context to whom it was written, Paul writing to the saints in Rome, these saints being Israelites of the dispersion

Why do you think Paul's audience was just diaspora Israel?

Very important to acknowledge the word Paul used, “Covenantbreakers” which can only describe Israelites, of which were given over to their strange gods, divorced of God and as punishment taken into captivity by the Assyrians, scattered throughout the “NATIONS” and of these Paul is describing, Romans who were saved by grace, of Christ Jesus, justified by faith snd called back to their God, Yahweh of hosts, God of Israel

Interesting catch. I see only a few translations translate like this, but a quick search shows it's only used here and in Jeremiah 3.

I'm not sure I understand the overall implications of your last sentence, especially coupled with you stated audience.. Will you elaborate?

 

[Genez]

Yes, I wish people would stop trying so hard to appear intelligent and just explain things clearly with the intention of teaching others. I mean, what’s the point?

Some things can not be clarified unless one is willing to ask questions.

On the other hand...

Some are to theology in wanting to appear intelligent as to what Biden is to wanting to appear presidential

Some want to appear intelligent because it can be faked by those who only wish they were more intelligent...
But, it ends up being the blind leading the blind too many times.

Ask questions to clarify...
That is how we sometimes find out who the fakers are.

grace and peace ........

 

[MerSee]

Some things can not be clarified unless one is willing to ask questions.

On the other hand...

Some are to theology in wanting to appear intelligent as to what Biden is to wanting to appear presidential

Some want to appear intelligent because it can be faked by those who only wish they were more intelligent...
But, it ends up being the blind leading the blind too many times.

Ask questions to clarify...
That is how we sometimes find out who the fakers are.

grace and peace ........

The blind leading the blind are those who refuse to believe the correct/sound doctrine of Jesus Christ.

 

[Rufus]

Well, someone around here has to post actual Scripture. Unless otherwise noted, I'm using BDAG Lexicon to define some words:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

• revealed from heaven = to cause someth. to be fully known, reveal, disclose, bring to light, make fully known

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

• known: pert. to being familiar or known: known; pert. to being able to be known, capable of being known, intelligible
• manifest (adjective) in them: pert. to being evident so as to be readily known, visible, clear, plainly to be seen, open, plain, evident, known;
• God has shown it to them: to cause to become known, disclose, show, make known

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

• clearly seen: perceive, notice, also of inward seeing; God’s invisible attributes are perceived with the eye of reason in the things that have been made Ro 1:20 (on the wordplay cp. Ps.-Aristot....
• understood: to grasp or comprehend someth. on the basis of careful thought, perceive, apprehend, understand, gain an insight into; to think over with care, consider, take note of

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

• knew God: to arrive at a knowledge of someone or someth., know, know about, make acquaintance of; to acquire information through some means, learn (of), ascertain, find out; to grasp the significance or meaning of someth., understand, comprehend

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

• changed: to exchange one thing for another, exchange

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

• exchanged: exchange someth. for someth. the truth of God (=the true God) for a lie (=a false god Ro 1:25.
• worshipped: to show reverence to, worship
• served: serve, in our lit. only of the carrying out of religious duties, esp. of a cultic nature, by human beings

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

• did not like to: to draw a conclusion about worth on the basis of testing, prove, approve,
• retain: to possess or contain, have, own; to stand in a close relationship to someone, have, have as; to experience someth., have; to be closely associated,
• knowledge: in accordance w. (real) knowledge Ro 10:2; L-S Lexicon: full knowledge, N.T.; my studies: experiential/practical/usable knowledge

I'll leave you to do your own work to explain this away. There's nothing I can do for you if you freely choose to explain away all of this information and the repetitive emphasis of different words showing that this is substantially more than God simply leaving men on their own to know of His existence, eternal power and divinity.

• His existence:
  • is intelligible
  • a clear thing in them
  • God made it known to them
  • it's clearly seen
  • it's comprehended on the basis of careful thought
  • they arrived at a knowledge of God
  • they exchanged God for His creatures
  • they exchanged the true God for false gods
  • they revered and served God's creatures
  • they saw no value in experiencing a relationship with God in accordance with real/full/usable knowledge

That's a lot of mental and sense faculties for a corpse.

Knowing and understanding what God made clear IN them and made known to them, they simply saw no value in having an experiential relationship with God and they chose to exchange God for God's creatures. This is far beyond being EXTERNAL as you erroneously push.

As history and Paul's language shows, some did see the value of having a relationship with God and did not exchange Him for His creatures.

Yup, all mankind can see the external world around them and come to some pretty solid conclusions about whether or not this world is an accident that randomly occurred or there is intelligence, purpose and intentionality behind it. But you keep ignoring the fact the God-hating human race doesn't like the kind of conclusions they reached which is why they freely chose to suppress the truth! Why? Because they did not want to retain God in their knowledge. Natural Man doesn't want his world to be as described in scripture -- or by what he may actually deduce from Natural Revelation. And don't forget: Natural Revelation ain't the Gospel! The Gospel is in Special Revelation only! Neither Christ or Paul went around preaching the sun, moon and stars, did they?

Of course, you can't even bring yourself to acknowledge that all the spiritually dead come into this world with their hearts filled with enmity towards God. No one comes into it as God-fearing, God-loving people. Since no one comes into this world as a natural born God-lover, then this means everyone comes in as a God-Hater! If someone is not essentially and substantially obeying the Greatest commandment, even if he's an extremely "moral", religious person, then he's a God-hater. Anyone who values anything or anyone more than God is a hater of God! Think back about what Jesus taught about worthiness and who is not worthy of him.

 

[selahsays]

Of course, you can't even bring yourself to acknowledge that all the spiritually dead come into this world with their hearts filled with enmity towards God. No one comes into it as God-fearing, God-loving people. Since no one comes into this world as a natural born God-lover, then this means everyone comes in as a God-Hater! If someone is not essentially and substantially obeying the Greatest commandment, even if he's an extremely "moral", religious person, then he's a God-hater. Anyone who values anything or anyone more than God is a hater of God! Think back about what Jesus taught about worthiness and who is not worthy of him.

Rufus, how did come to the Lord?

 

[Genez]

The blind leading the blind are those who refuse to believe the correct/sound doctrine of Jesus Christ.

I guess all the blind can see that as not applying to themselves.

 

[Rufus]

Romans 1:18-32 reading within the context to whom it was written, Paul writing to the saints in Rome, these saints being Israelites of the dispersion

“21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds,
and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

up until this time, we know that nobody had known the God of Israel except to whom He made a covenant, the Israelites, who turned their backs from the Law and began worshipping the canaanite gods asteroth, baal,molech,ect idolatry

“Neither said they, Where is the LORD that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, that led us through the wilderness, through a land of deserts and of pits, through a land of drought, and of the shadow of death, through a land that no man passed through, and where no man dwelt?
7And I brought you into a plentiful country, to eat the fruit thereof and the goodness thereof; but when ye entered, ye defiled my land, and made mine heritage an abomination.
8The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
Jeremiah2:6-8

“6The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. 7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. 9And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jeremiah 3:6-9

“26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, COVENANTBREAKERS, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 1:26:32

Very important to acknowledge the word Paul used, “Covenantbreakers” which can only describe Israelites, of which were given over to their strange gods, divorced of God and as punishment taken into captivity by the Assyrians, scattered throughout the “NATIONS” and of these Paul is describing, Romans who were saved by grace, of Christ Jesus, justified by faith snd called back to their God, Yahweh of hosts, God of Israel

Only the ASV and KJV render the Gr. "asunthetous" as covenant breakers. Even the NKJV doesn't render it that way any longer. The more literal translations such as the ESV, Darby, YLT, NASB, NKJV, RSV and the AMP pretty much render the word as "untrustworthy" or "faithless".

Another way I like to cross-check literal translations -- I like to compare them to their formal equivalency counteparts such as the NIV and even paraphrases which are geared to capturing thought for thought, rather than the literal word for word. The NIV renders the Gr. term faithless, the TLB as "broke their promises", the NLT as "break their promises". All of which are consistent with other scriptures that teach that man is basically a liar, untrustworhty and is himself self-deceived.

Also, "covenantbreakers" doesn't fit the context since Natural Revelation in chapter 1 and Intuitive Revelation in chapter 2 is universal in scope. All men are privy to both types of revelation. Not just the Jews.

Furthermore, even if we accept "covenantbreakers" as a legitimate renders how would that differ from "untrustworthy" or "faithless", espeecially since people in the ancient world were not strangers to compacts or covenants that were often made between private parties or nations.