Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Cameron143]

Because they reject the Gospel.

No. Because they are what they are. Jesus didn't come to change the lost goats of the house of Israel into sheep. He came to seek and to save the lost sheep.
Wheat is wheat. Tares are tares. No where does Jesus say He will change tares into wheat. He merely says wait to gather it.

 

[PaulThomson]

So God did indeed override the volition of men. Thanks. That's what I've been saying all along.

How did God override their volition? The willed/wanted to throw Jesus off the cliff. The continued to will/want that they had thrown Jesus off the cliff. They willed/wanted to stone Jesus. They continued to will/want that they had stoned stone Jesus. They willed/wanted to crucify Jesus. They continued to will/want Jesus dead by crucifixion. You are confusing having free will with having omnipotence.

 

[Cameron143]

According to that post there's a possibility of chance. I doubt chance was involved when God wanted His Plan for Jesus to be Sacrificed.

You clearly didn't understand the post. When God decrees something, it always comes to pass.

Perhaps I should have used the terms decretive and descriptive instead.

 

[Rufus]

Their Free Will was definitely removed. They were blinded and deafened by God.

And if that were the case, how would all just and wise and merciful God be able to condemn them?

 

[BillyBob]

@HeIsHere

Here is another Southern Baptist turned Atheist. Mega-Pastor Tim Sledge.

They're falling like flies

First let me state, I am not a member of a SBC, never have been and never will be!
However, I do feel the need to correct your observation on what you believe them to be.
1st you refer to them as reformed. This is your first mistake. Perhaps you say this simply because you have such a dislike for those here who are reformed or have beliefs that tend in that direction.
When you speak of them as being reformed you do so out of ignorance. The alter call is one of their means of bringing someone into their church. By doing this, they are, to a degree saying – “If you pray this prayer, then you will be saved”! That, in itself, is about as far from a reformed belief as you can get. In fact, it is very close to what you believe.
Next you condemn the SBC on the actions of a few. You do this base on an experience that you had in a southern state, and then again due to some mega preacher!
Or maybe you hate them for the simple reason that their organization is called The Southern Baptist Church. After all, in your earlier post you did refer to the south as “them good ole boys”! Are you still fighting the war!
In either case, you seem to indicate a hatred that must be fed!

 

[Cameron143]

How did God override their volition? The willed/wanted to throw Jesus off the cliff. The continued to will/want that they had thrown Jesus off the cliff. They willed/wanted to stone Jesus. They continued to will/want that they had stoned stone Jesus. They willed/wanted to crucify Jesus. They continued to will/want Jesus dead by crucifixion. You are confusing having free will with having omnipotence.

And I find it confusing that you believe free has limitations.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You clearly didn't understand the post. When God decrees something, it always comes to pass.

Perhaps I should have used the terms decretive and descriptive instead.

What is a decree? Ultimately it's a Command.

 

[Cameron143]

What is a decree? Ultimately it's a Command.

Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate your time and all that you shared.

 

[PaulThomson]

You clearly didn't understand the post. When God decrees something, it always comes to pass.

Perhaps I should have used the terms decretive and descriptive instead.

No it doesn't. Jesus has decreed many things that did not come to pass. He decreed the destruction of Nineveh in 40 days. He decreed that he would destroy all the Israelites and make of Moses a great nation to replace them. God's decrees are to motivate people to repentance and faith. He changes or follows through on His decrees depending on how men respond to His decrees.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And if that were the case, how would all just and wise and merciful God be able to condemn them?

Everyone involved was already evil in their own ways.
Pilate
Herod
Jews [Religious Leaders were making side rules to the Law for profit including having the Temple as a basic shopping mall]

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate your time and all that you shared.

I appreciate your time and answers as well. I learned we really are not far off in our beliefs. We might define things differently but not far apart as I had once thought.

 

[studier]

A will that is absolutely free has both the ability to make any and all choices as well as the ability to bring those choices to pass.

So you've expanded or chosen another definition for "free" to include the ability to bring those choices to pass.

Let's suppose you want to buy a car. You go to the lot and see a vehicle that costs 200K. Can you purchase the vehicle? Technically, sure. You are able to go through the financing process. But are you able to get the vehicle? For most people...no. Why? Probably because they don't have the savings, collateral, or income that will support securing the vehicle.
Now if you had a friend who simply came and gave you the money, now you could.

Does anybody have sufficient funds to pay what's required?

Can people still have the desire to to pay what's required?

Can people choose to accept or to reject the gift when they hear and learn of it?

 

[Cameron143]

No it doesn't. Jesus has decreed many things that did not come to pass. He decreed the destruction of Nineveh in 40 days. He decreed that he would destroy all the Israelites and make of Moses a great nation to replace them. God's decrees are to motivate people to repentance and faith. He changes or follows through on His decrees depending on how men respond to His decrees.

That's one understanding. But I don't care to rehash the arguments I've had with other posters to no avail. We simply disagree on what is decreed and what is described. I can live with that.

 

[PaulThomson]

And I find it confusing that you believe free has limitations.

Every act of freedom involves limitation. If I freely choose to do X, I must freely limit myself to doing X and not Y, Z, A, B. C.... You seem to be confusing freedom with an omnipotent ability to do all possible options at once.

 

[Rufus]

No. The calvinist concept of sovereignty is not in the Bible.

The "calvinist" concept is biblical as I defined the adjective "sovereign" yesterday (cf. Isa 57:15: Ex 15:1; Job 36:22: ps 46:10, etc., etc. The term "exalted" alone is found 59 times in the OT alone. Also, we shouldn't forget that none of God's creatures can compare to him. HE is the Incomparable One (Isa 40:25; 46:5).

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

It came about after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has

Good thing Job forgave them.

"Wrath" is not the Terror of the Lord.

And if you're insinuating that I do not possess Forgiveness, well then, you are the Judge and that's fine with me.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

First let me state, I am not a member of a SBC, never have been and never will be!
However, I do feel the need to correct your observation on what you believe them to be.
1st you refer to them as reformed. This is your first mistake. Perhaps you say this simply because you have such a dislike for those here who are reformed or have beliefs that tend in that direction.
When you speak of them as being reformed you do so out of ignorance. The alter call is one of their means of bringing someone into their church. By doing this, they are, to a degree saying – “If you pray this prayer, then you will be saved”! That, in itself, is about as far from a reformed belief as you can get. In fact, it is very close to what you believe.
Next you condemn the SBC on the actions of a few. You do this base on an experience that you had in a southern state, and then again due to some mega preacher!
Or maybe you hate them for the simple reason that their organization is called The Southern Baptist Church. After all, in your earlier post you did refer to the south as “them good ole boys”! Are you still fighting the war!
In either case, you seem to indicate a hatred that must be fed!

It's really more of a current observation just like the kkk is still prominent down there. Some things don't change.

But, I have good friends there so I know people are trying to conform to modern idealism about certain things. So many good things are happening. Also, I know their Tenants are Reformed tenants so it makes sense they are Reformed. But I most certainly do see progression with them. That's a very positive thing.

 

[Cameron143]

So you've expanded or chosen another definition for "free" to include the ability to bring those choices to pass.





Does anybody have sufficient funds to pay what's required?

Can people still have the desire to to pay what's required?

Can people choose to accept or to reject the gift when they hear and learn of it?

I haven't expanded my definition of freewill. Free is free. There are no limitations, otherwise it's not actually free, but subject to limits.
When Jesus sets someone free, they are free indeed. And if any man be in Christ, he has become a new creation. All things, not some are past. All things, not some, become new.

 

[PaulThomson]

That's one understanding. But I don't care to rehash the arguments I've had with other posters to no avail. We simply disagree on what is decreed and what is described. I can live with that.

If you cannot refute the argument, it remains a valid and solid argument, and that means that you must concede that your position is only one of several valid and sound perspectives on scripture. And if you have not been able adequately to defend your claim abainst my defeaters, I may conclude that your position is weak and merely your preference for emotional rather than logical reasons..

 

[BillyBob]

I know their Tenants are Reformed tenants so it makes sense they are Reformed.

Not True!