Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#7,321
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#7,321
PaulThomson said:
"He clearly says He is doing so because they cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom, while others have been given the ability to know."

Please, post the text of the scripture that clearly says, "They cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom, while others have been given the ability to know."

You asked earlier -
Cameron143 said:
Didn't Jesus speak in parables so some would not understand?

If Jesus spoke in parables so they would not understand His teaching, what was His purpose in preaching plainly before He started to use parables? Surely it was so that they could understand, and they rejected what they had understood Him to be saying, because it had not fit with their own opinions on spiritual things.""
Cameron143 said:
Matthew 13:11.
Click to expand...
Matt. 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Matt. 13:11 does not say "You cannot know." It says, "To them it is not given [to know]. the mysteries of the kingdom." .
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#7,322
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#7,322
Cameron143 said:
I didn't introduce the term rape or kidnap. These are both terms that were used to characterize what some who hold a particular view of salvation must be claiming. The mischaracterization was done by those who employed the terms. It was their mischaracterization of what they thought others believe. It was incendiary and inappropriate and inaccurate.
You can defend those individuals and those terms if you like, but you would only be guilty of the same.
Click to expand...
Why is drug rape not an appropriate characterisation of the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace? In drug rape the rapist, without the victim's prior consent, injects a chemical that makes the victim want to be intimate with them; and in calvinist irresistible grace, God, without the person's prior consent, injects calvinist faith into a person, that makes the person want to be intimate with God.
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#7,323
Apr 18, 2024
1,205
233
63
#7,323
PaulThomson said:
If Jesus spoke in parables so they would not understand His teaching, what was His purpose in preaching plainly before He started to use parables? Surely it was so that they could understand, and they rejected what they had understood Him to be saying, because it had not fit with their own opinions on spiritual things.""
Click to expand...

I've participated in some forums on and off for awhile. They're all a bit different in focus in my experience. This one is quite revealing of how little is Scripture actually paid attention to.

Your experience and opinion?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#7,324
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#7,324
Mem said:
So, kill me. I think it a reasonable characterization of an erroneous interpretation.
Jesus called Judas "friend" and without a cynical bone in His body. Why? He knew that Judas was no friend of Him. However, the Lord is friendly in allowing others the privilege of their own opinions, even if they are erroneous and would lead them to hell. But He wasn't backward about making them aware of it.
Click to expand...
So God raped you when He created you? Or did He get your permission? Did He continue His rape when He chose your parents for you? Is He raping you now by placing limits on your habitation?
My goodness...God is a serial rapist. Who knew?
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#7,325
Apr 18, 2024
1,205
233
63
#7,325
They ignored you before. Will they again? Too slow for Cameron post. Guess not.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#7,326
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#7,326
Cameron143 said:
So God raped you when He created you? Or did He get your permission? Did He continue His rape when He chose your parents for you? Is He raping you now by placing limits on your habitation?
My goodness...God is a serial rapist. Who knew?
Click to expand...
You've taken it beyond absurdity. God gave me all that, and didn't not deny me any opportunity, neither to say, 'I do' nor to say, "I won't."
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#7,327
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#7,327
PaulThomson said:
Why is drug rape not an appropriate characterisation of the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace? In drug rape the rapist, without the victim's prior consent, injects a chemical that makes the victim want to be intimate with them; and in calvinist irresistible grace, God, without the person's prior consent, injects calvinist faith into a person, that makes the person want to be intimate with God.
Click to expand...
Did God rape you by creating you or did He get your permission? When God chose your parents, was He raping you? When God sets boundaries for you, is He continuing His serial rape of you? Was the Apostle Paul raped when God forbid him to go places?

It was a very poor and incendiary and inappropriate analogy to begin with. The defense of it is anathema.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#7,328
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#7,328
Mem said:
You've taken it beyond absurdity. God gave me all that, and didn't not deny me any opportunity, neither to say, 'I do' nor to say, "I won't."
Click to expand...
That's the point. No one made this argument. It was insinuated by a poster. And defended by others as accurate.
Show the post that says that an individual who gets saved doesn't do so of their own volition.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#7,329
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#7,329
PaulThomson said:
PaulThomson said:
"He clearly says He is doing so because they cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom, while others have been given the ability to know."

Please, post the text of the scripture that clearly says, "They cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom, while others have been given the ability to know."

You asked earlier -
Cameron143 said:
Didn't Jesus speak in parables so some would not understand?

If Jesus spoke in parables so they would not understand His teaching, what was His purpose in preaching plainly before He started to use parables? Surely it was so that they could understand, and they rejected what they had understood Him to be saying, because it had not fit with their own opinions on spiritual things.""


Matt. 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Matt. 13:11 does not say "You cannot know." It says, "To them it is not given [to know]. the mysteries of the kingdom." .
Click to expand...
It says knowing is given. Thus, it's source is outside of oneself.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#7,330
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#7,330
Cameron143 said:
That's the point. No one made this argument. It was insinuated by a poster. And defended by others as accurate.
Show the post that says that an individual who gets saved doesn't do so of their own volition.
Click to expand...
The overview of irresistible grace implies no choice, that God 'makes' someone to 'will to.' That is tantamount to witchcraft.
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#7,331
Apr 18, 2024
1,205
233
63
#7,331
Mem said:
You've taken it beyond absurdity
Click to expand...

Absurdity is normally not a concern for those who use it.

When death is essentially non existence in the view of some, then correlating non-existence to existing in spiritual death while walking, talking, observing, hearing, thinking, choosing, believing can somehow make sense.

A physical corpse is the only reality even though Scripture clearly reveals it's not.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#7,333
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#7,333
Mem said:
You've taken it beyond absurdity. God gave me all that, and didn't not deny me any opportunity, neither to say, 'I do' nor to say, "I won't."
Click to expand...
God clearly acts sovereignly in the lives of all people. I've never heard them describe this as rape. At least be consistent. If it's true in one case, why isn't it true in every case?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#7,336
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
113
#7,336
studier said:
Absurdity is normally not a concern for those who use it.

When death is essentially non existence in the view of some, then correlating non-existence to existing in spiritual death while walking, talking, observing, hearing, thinking, choosing, believing can somehow make sense.

A physical corpse is the only reality even though Scripture clearly reveals it's not.
Click to expand...

When the meanings of words are changed it is not possible to have a discussion.
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#7,339
Apr 18, 2024
1,205
233
63
#7,339
HeIsHere said:
When the meaning of words is changed it is not possible to have a discussion.
Click to expand...

Agree. I often describe it as speaking a different language. Even if it's all English, the moment we have different definitions of words, it's not the same language.

As you've noted, spiritual death for @Cameron143 is being equated to non-existence.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.