Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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PaulThomson

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PaulThomson said:
"He clearly says He is doing so because they cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom, while others have been given the ability to know."

Please, post the text of the scripture that clearly says, "They cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom, while others have been given the ability to know."

You asked earlier -
Cameron143 said:
Didn't Jesus speak in parables so some would not understand?

If Jesus spoke in parables so they would not understand His teaching, what was His purpose in preaching plainly before He started to use parables? Surely it was so that they could understand, and they rejected what they had understood Him to be saying, because it had not fit with their own opinions on spiritual things.""
Cameron143 said:
Matthew 13:11.
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Matt. 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Matt. 13:11 does not say "You cannot know." It says, "To them it is not given [to know]. the mysteries of the kingdom." .
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
I didn't introduce the term rape or kidnap. These are both terms that were used to characterize what some who hold a particular view of salvation must be claiming. The mischaracterization was done by those who employed the terms. It was their mischaracterization of what they thought others believe. It was incendiary and inappropriate and inaccurate.
You can defend those individuals and those terms if you like, but you would only be guilty of the same.
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Why is drug rape not an appropriate characterisation of the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace? In drug rape the rapist, without the victim's prior consent, injects a chemical that makes the victim want to be intimate with them; and in calvinist irresistible grace, God, without the person's prior consent, injects calvinist faith into a person, that makes the person want to be intimate with God.
 
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studier

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PaulThomson said:
If Jesus spoke in parables so they would not understand His teaching, what was His purpose in preaching plainly before He started to use parables? Surely it was so that they could understand, and they rejected what they had understood Him to be saying, because it had not fit with their own opinions on spiritual things.""
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I've participated in some forums on and off for awhile. They're all a bit different in focus in my experience. This one is quite revealing of how little is Scripture actually paid attention to.

Your experience and opinion?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mem said:
So, kill me. I think it a reasonable characterization of an erroneous interpretation.
Jesus called Judas "friend" and without a cynical bone in His body. Why? He knew that Judas was no friend of Him. However, the Lord is friendly in allowing others the privilege of their own opinions, even if they are erroneous and would lead them to hell. But He wasn't backward about making them aware of it.
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So God raped you when He created you? Or did He get your permission? Did He continue His rape when He chose your parents for you? Is He raping you now by placing limits on your habitation?
My goodness...God is a serial rapist. Who knew?
 
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studier

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They ignored you before. Will they again? Too slow for Cameron post. Guess not.
 
Mem

Mem

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Cameron143 said:
So God raped you when He created you? Or did He get your permission? Did He continue His rape when He chose your parents for you? Is He raping you now by placing limits on your habitation?
My goodness...God is a serial rapist. Who knew?
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You've taken it beyond absurdity. God gave me all that, and didn't not deny me any opportunity, neither to say, 'I do' nor to say, "I won't."
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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PaulThomson said:
Why is drug rape not an appropriate characterisation of the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace? In drug rape the rapist, without the victim's prior consent, injects a chemical that makes the victim want to be intimate with them; and in calvinist irresistible grace, God, without the person's prior consent, injects calvinist faith into a person, that makes the person want to be intimate with God.
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Did God rape you by creating you or did He get your permission? When God chose your parents, was He raping you? When God sets boundaries for you, is He continuing His serial rape of you? Was the Apostle Paul raped when God forbid him to go places?

It was a very poor and incendiary and inappropriate analogy to begin with. The defense of it is anathema.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mem said:
You've taken it beyond absurdity. God gave me all that, and didn't not deny me any opportunity, neither to say, 'I do' nor to say, "I won't."
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That's the point. No one made this argument. It was insinuated by a poster. And defended by others as accurate.
Show the post that says that an individual who gets saved doesn't do so of their own volition.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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PaulThomson said:
PaulThomson said:
"He clearly says He is doing so because they cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom, while others have been given the ability to know."

Please, post the text of the scripture that clearly says, "They cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom, while others have been given the ability to know."

You asked earlier -
Cameron143 said:
Didn't Jesus speak in parables so some would not understand?

If Jesus spoke in parables so they would not understand His teaching, what was His purpose in preaching plainly before He started to use parables? Surely it was so that they could understand, and they rejected what they had understood Him to be saying, because it had not fit with their own opinions on spiritual things.""


Matt. 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Matt. 13:11 does not say "You cannot know." It says, "To them it is not given [to know]. the mysteries of the kingdom." .
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It says knowing is given. Thus, it's source is outside of oneself.
 
Mem

Mem

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Cameron143 said:
That's the point. No one made this argument. It was insinuated by a poster. And defended by others as accurate.
Show the post that says that an individual who gets saved doesn't do so of their own volition.
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The overview of irresistible grace implies no choice, that God 'makes' someone to 'will to.' That is tantamount to witchcraft.
 
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studier

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Mem said:
You've taken it beyond absurdity
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Absurdity is normally not a concern for those who use it.

When death is essentially non existence in the view of some, then correlating non-existence to existing in spiritual death while walking, talking, observing, hearing, thinking, choosing, believing can somehow make sense.

A physical corpse is the only reality even though Scripture clearly reveals it's not.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mem said:
You've taken it beyond absurdity. God gave me all that, and didn't not deny me any opportunity, neither to say, 'I do' nor to say, "I won't."
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God clearly acts sovereignly in the lives of all people. I've never heard them describe this as rape. At least be consistent. If it's true in one case, why isn't it true in every case?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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studier said:
Absurdity is normally not a concern for those who use it.

When death is essentially non existence in the view of some, then correlating non-existence to existing in spiritual death while walking, talking, observing, hearing, thinking, choosing, believing can somehow make sense.

A physical corpse is the only reality even though Scripture clearly reveals it's not.
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When the meanings of words are changed it is not possible to have a discussion.
 
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studier

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HeIsHere said:
When the meaning of words is changed it is not possible to have a discussion.
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Agree. I often describe it as speaking a different language. Even if it's all English, the moment we have different definitions of words, it's not the same language.

As you've noted, spiritual death for @Cameron143 is being equated to non-existence.
 
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