Wow! You wrote an awful lot to press my analogy beyond the boundaries of absurdity. You could have simply written that poor ol' Rufus is out to lunch and been done with it.
Just giving your theory its due analysis. Anything less would be disrespectful and rejection without explanation.
As far as "eisegetical meditation" goes, I'm sure you'll be able to supply us with solid proof from Special or Natural Revelation that everyone one us played a key role in our own physical births, right?.
It's not necessary and actually a ridiculous argument.
I don't share your spiritual death analogy that says man is a corpse. And you yourself agreed that man can understand certain spiritual information, so I don't know how you get to the typical TD corpse analogy either.
So the rebirth is not the same as the physical birth.
Your analogy sounds more like Nicodemus misunderstanding and thinking we must enter the womb again, which gained him the rebuke of our Lord that you posted.
NKJ John 3:3-5
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4
Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old?
Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
I think I read somewhere that you likened the unregenerate's role in their own salvation as "collaborating" with God? Really? The Walking Dead collaborated with God so he could raise them from their spiritual tombs?
You've misunderstood me. The collaboration I've written of and posted Scripture about is in the context of the Christian collaborating in what you might refer to as [experiential] sanctification, which the Text is Phil2:11-12 speaks of as salvation.
I have however also pointed out this verse: Jn. 6:26-27 NKJ 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but
[labor/work] for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
- It seems to be pretty inconvenient for the systematic theology of so many, but Jesus here commanded unbelieving men to "work" for the food (Gospel information) that remains into eternal life which He gives.
- I don't think Jesus Christ is as terrified of talk about dead men working as some of His siblings are.
And this is YOU! Because you refuse to draw the obvious, common sense parallels between physical birth and spiritual birth, and between physical resurrection and spiritual resurrection, you wind up with a synergistic salvation
Physical vs. spiritual already addressed, so moving on.
I knew someone would come along and open up the synergism vs. monergism discussion. I'm not prone to caring much about the isms as men label them. I just read the Text and point things out that I see.
With that said, I'm going to scan through the rest if your post and see what Scripture you've posted (that's not not in proof text format). I'm not interested in these silly analogy battles. I do appreciate your posting the verses from John3. If you'd like to wring that out a bit more, I'm game. As it stands I think you're Nicodemus in that one, thinking we need to go back to physical birth to understand what Jesus says about spiritual rebirth.
Men either love the Light or hate it! Very simple to understand. And who is the light, if not Jesus himself? So, when men love the darkness (a/k/a Death) they simultaneously hate The Light of the World. And since they hate him, they hate his Father, as well! But this is very inconvenient truth for you isn't it? And we should't forget what Paul said about the darkness:
Eph 5:8
8 For you WERE once darkness , but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
NIV
Firstly, no Truth is inconvenient for me. I have no canned system I draw from. Every time a Scripture is discussed I look at with fresh eyes as best I can and I look at a point of view being discussed to see if I think it fits what the Text says. If someone proves to me that I'm looking at something wrongly, then I'll allow my thinking to be changed to conform to Truth. I've had to do it before. I'm not opposed to doing it as many times as needed to get to Truth. But I'm not a pushover and you've not been convincing with all your narrative and analogies.
Firstly, when a verse begins with "for" it is explaining or elaborating on what was said just before it, so I'll grab some context and see where it takes us.
NKJ Ephesians 5:1-11
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness,
let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For
this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things
the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore
do not be partakers with them. 8
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (
for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10
finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And
have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather
expose them.
- 5:1 "therefore" ties us back some ways which I'm not going to at this juncture.
- I normally watch for NC commands issued to Christians. This is because of the collaboration between Christians and God in the Christian Life and in part the command in Phil2:11-12 to accomplish our salvation by work based in God providing His capabilities to us to both will and do for His good pleasure. So, while we're here I'll pick out these and paraphrase these commands (looking mainly at English for now) issued to us by our Lord through His Apostle:
- As God's children:
- Be imitators of God
- Walk in Love with Jesus Christ as our model
- As holy ones (God's children), do not even let the sins mentioned in 5:3-4 be named among us.
- The basis for this is what Christians know about those who will not have inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God.
- Do not be deceived by anyone with empty words (about inheritance & sinfulness) - God's wrath comes upon the sons of disobedience.
- Do not be sharers with the sons of disobedience upon whom comes God wrath.
- Your verse: Explains mainly the verse 7 command to not be sharers with the sons of disobedience upon whom will come God's wrath (for disobedience aka sins).
- Explanation (of 5:7) - in the past you were being darkness - but now you are light in the Lord.
- I'll explain what I see at the end of this.
- Walk as children of light (for this is where/how the fruit of the Spirit is produced) closely examining and concluding what is well pleasing to the Lord.
- Both the underlined are commands.
- I've elaborated the word translated above as "finding out" because it's a word used in assaying metals for purity and value which IMO tells us what is pleasing and valuable to our Lord.
- Also, since you've had discussions wit @PaulThomson re: verb tenses, I'll point out that I would translated these as continuous presents - Be continuously walking continuously examining and concluding.
- Do not have any association with unfruitful/unproductive works of darkness.
- Expose unfruitful/unproductive works of darkness
Firstly, this is a lot of commands in a short section of Scripture and these are types of things the Christian does in collaboration with God in accomplish his salvation in fear and trembling with God providing His capabilities so the Christian can both will and do for God's good pleasure (note the tie above to the assaying of value terminology re: what is well pleasing to Jesus Christ).
cont'd
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