Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[rogerg]

This is the problem theological models have created re: works. God created us for good works. When we enter into Christ we are to become workers of good. Yet certain theological models scream at us when we mention works IMO because they do not properly understand mainly Faith and Salvation and [Good] Works.

There is a vast difference between works being a requirement for salvation as opposed to their being done as a result of salvation.

Look, I'm not going to go though each of your bullets to refute them. In fact, this is exactly the reason why in my prior post
I said that until Jesus's role is established, it would be difficult and fruitless to discuss other issues. So, my question to you is:
do you believe that Christ alone is Saviour, or not? Until you can answer that question, and hopefully in the affimative, there is no reason or basis to go on further because we will not be able to communicate. Now, if you want to discuss what it means
that Jesus is fully, completely and solely the Saviour and the implications thereof, we can have that discussion.

 

[Mem]

I've finalized the formation of my opinion on Calvinism. I started in thinking that if we took the TU out of TULIP, we're left with nothing but LIP. But now, I've realized that the budding doctrine doesn't even have a pot to P in...

 

[studier]

While the Bible does make distinctions in aspects of salvation...saved from the penalty of sin, being saved from the power of sin, eventually saved from the presence of sin...at what point is someone placed into Christ?

Why don't you tell me, since you don't like how I answer you. I pointed out some Scripture while we were in Galatians, which you haven't really dealt with to any substantial degree. Your turn. Use some Scripture and show me what you know of being "in Christ."

 

[Cameron143]

Why don't you tell me, since you don't like how I answer you. I pointed out some Scripture while we were in Galatians, which you haven't really dealt with to any substantial degree. Your turn. Use some Scripture and show me what you know of being "in Christ."

I don't have a problem with answers. But you aren't actually answering my questions. I was trying to deal with what you shared, but you won't answer. When does someone get placed into Christ?

 

[Rufus]

Election for a calvinist means something different from what election means in the Bible though. I could agree that we are unconditionally chosen to be given the gospel and invited into God's kingdom. And I could agree that all the Hebrews in Egypt were unconditionally chosen to be offered an exodus from Egypt. But I think you mean something more presumptuous than that. You are using Unconditional Election as something conjoined with Irresistible Grace. There is no evidence that every Hebrew in Egypt left Egypt with Moses.

Show me in scripture where God gave the Hebrews a choice between staying under their bondage to Pharaoh or freedom from him.

Or did Eve get a choice when God decreed her freedom from the Serpent!? Did God ask her permission first?

 

[Rufus]

That's correct. And in the analogy you didn't say "sometimes evil", or "partly evil", either. Which is the point. But you can't admit that, because you would then have to sacrifice your proof-text idol.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at. Man is Evil. God is Good. The twain shall never meet. Nor is there a middle option, biblically speaking, between the two. And how man is absolutely evil I explained previously when I discussed the chief end of man.

 

[MerSee]

Are they attempting to refuse to believe what they believe is true because they think it is foolishness, or because they prefer to keep on pursuing the pleasures of sin.

Both.

 

[studier]

There is a vast difference between works being a requirement for salvation as opposed to their being done as a result of salvation.

That's one facet of looking at it in a certain context, but says nothing about the Scripture I showed you that commands us to accomplish our Salvation. And please note that Paul did not say finish our Sanctification. That ought to tell us that equating our Salvation only to our initial Justification is not how Paul thinks or writes.

Look, I'm not going to go though each of your bullets to refute them.

Because you can't do so and remain in proper interpretation.

So, my question to you is: do you believe that Christ alone is Saviour, or not?

I believe what I read in the Text and not what many teachers teach. For instance, how would you interpret this verse:

NKJ 1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,

Now, if you want to discuss what it means that Jesus is fully, completely and solely the Saviour and the implications thereof, we can have that discussion.

If you'd like to look deeper into the Text and cease reading past Scripture with systematic theology eyes, then we might be able to have a fruitful discussion. Sit down in a quiet space some time and focus just on how our Lord extols our Father and consider why men like Paul said things like this:

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, (Tit. 3:4-6 NKJ)

I know a fair degree about who Jesus Christ is and what He's done for us and about who sent Him and who He loved and praised in ways mostly skipped over now because of phrases like Faith Alone in Christ Alone. I don't read the Text presupposing the mantras of men and I'm not stuck on the silly concepts against works they've made up. I just gave you a works verse related to our SALVATION. I can ask you more about things like this. But you'll have no answers until you let the Text speak so you can better understand things like Paul's teaching against "works of Law".

 

[PaulThomson]

Both.

Then I'll ask you the same question. Can you give another example where someone understands something and believes it to be accurate and true, but also considers it foolishness?

 

[PaulThomson]

I don't understand what you're trying to get at. Man is Evil. God is Good. The twain shall never meet. Nor is there a middle option, biblically speaking, between the two. And how man is absolutely evil I explained previously when I discussed the chief end of man.

How can you possibly not understand. Explain to me what the vendor means when He tells you, "All the apples in this tray are good," but all but one unique Granny Smith have some degree of corruption.

And explain to me what you mean when you say to him, "Why do you call that one you gave me good? There is none good, not one except the Granny Smith."

And explain to me how one can assert that a partially bruise apple is "good for nothing".

If you try to explain those, you couldn't help but understand my point.

But so far, you refuse to dialogue. You seem to only want to fight with and preach at people.

 

[studier]

I don't have a problem with answers. But you aren't actually answering my questions. I was trying to deal with what you shared, but you won't answer. When does someone get placed into Christ?

Are you asking me because you don't know or because you think you know and I don't? My view is very easy to find. Just read Scripture apart from presupposition.

If you'd like to work together to put together all that's said in the Text re: being in Christ and when it says we enter into Christ and whether or not we can be released from Christ, then lets proceed with Scripture. I highlighted for you "in Christ" in Gal3:27-28 and all you did was criticize me for pointing it out to you.

You've also skirted the issue of what Paul says about being in Christ and falling from grace and being released from Christ, etc. You seem to think I have no background in the theological model you think by, which would make you very wrong.

You're attempting to draw the discussion into your systematic theology and away from looking at Scripture in detail because you can't argue from the Text. But the truth is in the Text and not in the devised model. And these systematic models just make for endless merry-go-round discussions that never resolve anything, end at some point, and then get raised again for another round on the circle.

Got Scripture? Want to work together to answer your question from Scripture? Or is your favored model good enough for you?

 

[studier]

When does someone get placed into Christ?

Here we go, Cameron. This is a simple search of all NC verses that use the Greek phrase "en Christos" in a specific parsing. This is a good start. Pick any verse you'd like and we'll see if we can work through it in context to see how it informs us. We'll likely end up setting several verses aside as not being pertinent to our discussion. I note right away that except for 3 verses in 1Peter, all the instances are in Paul's writings, which make sense as being "in Christ" is known to be a Pauline expression, as some refer to such things:

We'll also need to see if we can glean any understanding of the phrase from the language alone. IOW, what does "en' mean and what is it's range of meaning?

NKJ Rom. 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
NKJ Rom. 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJ Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJ Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
NKJ Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
NKJ Rom. 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJ Rom. 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
NKJ Rom. 12:5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
NKJ Rom. 15:17 Therefore I have reason to glory in Christ Jesus in the things which pertain to God.
NKJ Rom. 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,
NKJ Rom. 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
NKJ Rom. 16:9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys, my beloved.
NKJ Rom. 16:10 Greet Apelles, approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus.
NKJ 1 Cor. 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
NKJ 1 Cor. 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus,
NKJ 1 Cor. 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
NKJ 1 Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
NKJ 1 Cor. 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored!
NKJ 1 Cor. 4:15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
NKJ 1 Cor. 4:17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.
NKJ 1 Cor. 15:18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
NKJ 1 Cor. 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
NKJ 1 Cor. 15:31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
NKJ 1 Cor. 16:24 My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.
NKJ 2 Cor. 2:17 For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.
NKJ 2 Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
NKJ 2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
NKJ 2 Cor. 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
NKJ 2 Cor. 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
NKJ 2 Cor. 12:19 Again, do you think that we excuse ourselves to you? We speak before God in Christ. But we do all things, beloved, for your edification.
NKJ Gal. 1:22 And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ.
NKJ Gal. 2:4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),
NKJ Gal. 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
NKJ Gal. 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NKJ Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
NKJ Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
NKJ Eph. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
NKJ Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
NKJ Eph. 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
NKJ Eph. 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
NKJ Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJ Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
NKJ Eph. 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
NKJ Eph. 3:21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
NKJ Eph. 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.
NKJ Phil. 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
NKJ Phil. 1:13 so that it has become evident to the whole palace guard, and to all the rest, that my chains are in Christ;
NKJ Phil. 1:26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.
NKJ Phil. 2:1 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy,
NKJ Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
NKJ Phil. 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJ Phil. 3:14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
NKJ Phil. 4:7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
NKJ Phil. 4:19 And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
NKJ Phil. 4:21 Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren who are with me greet you.
NKJ Col. 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJ Col. 1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints;
NKJ Col. 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

 

[studier]

Here are the rest of the verses from the basic search:

NKJ 1 Thess. 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans,
NKJ 1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
NKJ 1 Thess. 5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
NKJ 1 Tim. 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
NKJ 1 Tim. 3:13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJ 2 Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
NKJ 2 Tim. 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
NKJ 2 Tim. 1:13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
NKJ 2 Tim. 2:1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
NKJ 2 Tim. 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
NKJ 2 Tim. 3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
NKJ 2 Tim. 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJ Phlm. 1:8 Therefore, though I might be very bold in Christ to command you what is fitting,
NKJ Phlm. 1:20 Yes, brother, let me have joy from you in the Lord; refresh my heart in the Lord.
NKJ Phlm. 1:23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you,
NKJ 1 Peter 3:15-16 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.
NKJ 1 Pet. 5:10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you .
NKJ 1 Pet. 5:14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to you all who are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

 

[Niki7]

I don't have a problem with answers. But you aren't actually answering my questions THE WAY I WANT YOU TO. I was trying to deal with what you shared, but you won't answer. When does someone get placed into Christ?

fixed it for ya!

 

[PaulThomson]

I don't have a problem with answers. But you aren't actually answering my questions. I was trying to deal with what you shared, but you won't answer. When does someone get placed into Christ?

It's somewhat disingenuous to answer questions with questions, and then to complain that your interlocutor holds off answering your second- and third- and fourth-tier questions until you answer his original questions.

Some one is placed into Christ when they confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that Christ raised Him from the dead. Rom 10

 

[Rufus]

Always ready to listen or read to a point and until I see it conflicting with Scripture. Reading further in this post I'm happy to take a look at your theory as long as it is based upon and uses Scripture. If you get the time and can point me to what you've written, I'll take a look.

I'm sure you've reflected upon your redefining the word "regenerate" which normally refers to being born from above/again. My caution with reading you is that I think you begin at a place I disagree with (TD or RTD and the remaining letters) and that you do not participate deeply enough in discussions that analyze Scripture in context.

From a presupposition, assuming error, which I think you have, then with an erroneous presupposition, as you well know, everything must work with it. Meditations with a presupposition can just be a discipline of eisegetical pondering. There's no solid building on an erroneous foundation.

I'm glad you said "can" be. But don't you agree that an All-Wise God would choose his words very carefully? If so, shouldn't we seriously ponder metaphorical language? Why does God use words like "die", or, "death", or,"darkness", "life", "born again", "resurrection", "sheep", et. to define or describe spiritual realities? In temporal reality, is not actual birth the end result of a particular process which we know as pregnancy? Is not God drawing his people to Christ a process? Is not sanctification a process, etc., etc.?

I'm also going to ask you to stop misrepresenting what I say in order to turn them into statements like this. Having faculties that can understand spiritual things to a degree is far from saying the unregenerate are godly and God lovers. This is a cheap shot and we'll need to hold one another to a higher level of discussion and respect if we're going to continue.

I apologize if I offended you but I really didn't think it was a cheap shot. You rather unequivocally objected to my proposition that all in Adam come into this world as God-haters, for this is the natural disposition of all sinners' hearts. And this is the tenor of all scripture. And I demonstrated from scripture that to hate God only requires that a person live a lifestyle wherein he is constantly living in violation of the Greatest Commandment, and consequently not living up to his Chief End -- to the primary purpose for which he was created in the first place, which is to Glorify God in thought, word and deed.

I further said there were two kinds of God-haters in this world. The overt, openly-hostile kind (Pharaoh is a great example) and the covert, quiet, more reserve kind like the Rich Young Ruler. In fact, while I'm thinking of it I can think of another great example. The Jews of the elite, religious ruling class fell into the first class of hater. Pilate, representing Rome, fell into the second class; for he tried his best to free Jesus. He didn't want to kill Him -- until the Jews threatened him politically, when they made their "veiled" threat against him: "If YOU let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. ANYONE who claims to be a king opposes Caesar" (Jn 19:12). Then Pilate caved! He loved his position of power more than he loved God. Wow! Talk about the Jewish leaders having megabytes of chutzpah! It's no wonder that Jesus told Pilate that those who delivered Him up to him have the greater sin!

I will find those posts that comprised my argument for the New Birth Analogy and advise what the number as I said later. As I said, I seem to recall there were two or three.

 

[Cameron143]

It's somewhat disingenuous to answer questions with questions, and then to complain that your interlocutor holds off answering your second- and third- and fourth-tier questions until you answer his original questions.

Some one is placed into Christ when they confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that Christ raised Him from the dead. Rom 10

I appreciate the answer. Have a few more questions if you are up for answering.

Who places someone into Christ?

 

[Rufus]

It's somewhat disingenuous to answer questions with questions, and then to complain that your interlocutor holds off answering your second- and third- and fourth-tier questions until you answer his original questions.

Some one is placed into Christ when they confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that Christ raised Him from the dead. Rom 10

Yet at the same time, it is also written:

1 Cor 12:3
3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord ," except by the Holy Spirit.
NIV

So...which came first: The chicken or the egg?

 

[Rufus]

Thanks. Just making certain.

So, who is Paul writing to and commanding to stand firm (Gal5:1), Christians = in Christ?

Professing Christians?

 

[Rufus]

So, you are saying that the unregenerate CAN believe the gospel truths but doing so will not save him. Somehow he believes something he himself also considers foolishness. Can you give an example of something else a person can believe to be accurate and true, but they can at the same time also consider foolishness?

Read Romans 1. People can know something to be true; yet at the same time become futile in their thinking -- in their CARNAL minds and rationalize the truth away. Easy peasy...