Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[PaulThomson]

Right. But a person believes by faith. No natural man possesses faith.

Every natural person possesses faith. But most don't choose to put onto Jesus that faith they were given at birth.

 

[Magenta]

I can't even find the handle on it to even get a handle on it. I've tried, really, I have.

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as
wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or
wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from
a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things
that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does
recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory
of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and
judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie
behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done
for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds
are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point
where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!” source

Romans 3:10-12

 

[PaulThomson]

Not only is it in the book, it IS the book.

[Heb 10:7 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[Jhn 6:39 KJV]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

You are doubling down? Ouch!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Not only is it in the book, it IS the book.

[Heb 10:7 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[Jhn 6:39 KJV]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Let's complete the thoughts of Jesus here like you purposefully leave out.

Verse 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

This shows our participation all day long!

We have to LOOK and BELIEVE!

 

[PaulThomson]

here is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God.

Then be honest and invent and use a term that actually means what you are pretending the words "total depravity" mean. Pan-aspectual imperfection: PUPIL? Omni-faceted imperfection: LOUPI? TULIP is dishonest.

 

[rogerg]

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!” source

If the heart is deceitful above all things as we are so informed in the verse below, then how can it un-deceitfulize (sorry, my word) itself? It can't, and so, those who have a good heart, have it, only because they have been given it. So, the question then becomes, can someone with a heart completely deceitful give to himself true faith without first having received a new heart?

[Jer 17:9-10 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[studier]

Yes, for his faith, "...for God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him", the reward for Abraham's faith was uncountable.

I was watching for this part of this verse to be mentioned.

NAS Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

• To come to God:
  • It is necessary to believe that [He] is
    • He is what? God?
    • It could be translated as [He] exists.
  • And it is necessary to believe that He becomes a rewarder to the ones who seek Him
    • "rewarder" is more literally a "wage payer"

I find it interesting that:

• That the "believe that He is" in this verse seems to be what is stated in Rom1:19-20 where it says God has put certain knowledge of Himself in men.
• This last clause about believing God is a rewarder/payer is in here and in Rom1:28 the language is speaking of men who saw no value in having God in their experiential knowledge.

 

[PaulThomson]

Apparently some do not need God at all. They chose themselves, and they circumcised their own hearts and ears!

Who gave humans the ability to circumcise their hearts and unblock their ears? Don't need God at all?! Who says "We don't need God at all "? Who says "We choose ourselves"?

Deut. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff-necked.

 

[Cameron143]

You made the suggestion. Explain it with Scripture. If it were me I'd look at some close context first.

Man can prick his own heart? Man possesses the ability to alter his most inward parts? Then why does God need to take out his heart of stone and provide a heart of flesh? One only needs this type of heart to live in the kingdom, but not to enter it?

 

[studier]

Aww man; that’s an easy one.

Nothing's easy around here.

 

[rogerg]

Let's complete the thoughts of Jesus here like you purposefully leave out.

Verse 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

And you don't understand the verses I posted - that to truly look upon the Son and to believe on Him comes only as a gift from God and is not of, from, or by, a person.

 

[Magenta]

Who gave humans the ability to circumcise their hearts and unblock their ears? Don't
need God at all?! Who says "We don't need God at all "? Who says "We choose ourselves"?

Deut. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff-necked.

I guess you missed some of those posts. But the one who says people choose of their
own free will without having been chosen first by God is still posting in this thread.

Some chose themselves and then became elect is their thinking.
Not sure how you missed all that. A whole thread was made on it.

And another was very clear that they did not need God's help in coming to believe.

Gosh, it is the crux of the convo.

 

[PaulThomson]

If the heart is deceitful above all things as we are so informed in the verse below, then how can it un-deceitfulize (sorry, my word) itself? It can't, and so, those who have a good heart, have it, only because they have been given it. So, the question then becomes, can someone with a heart completely deceitful give to himself true faith without first having received a new heart?

[Jer 17:9-10 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

That a heart is more deceitful than anything else in creation does not mean it is incapable of any honesty. A 99% corrupted apple is bad, but still has 1% that is good. You are forcing TOTAL depravity into that text.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And you don't understand the verses I posted - that to truly look upon the Son and to believe on Him comes only as a gift from God and is not of, from, or by, a person.

I completely understand what you are doing.
You cannot fool anyone here.
Jesus gave 2 back to back verses that showed the Will of the Father in John and you only posted 1.
I know you are here to deceive anyone you can.
I just thank God I am here to point it out.

 

[PaulThomson]

Man can prick his own heart? Man possesses the ability to alter his most inward parts? Then why does God need to take out his heart of stone and provide a heart of flesh? One only needs this type of heart to live in the kingdom, but not to enter it?

If pricking the heart is circumcision, it seems man can prick his own heart.

Deut. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff-necked.

REPLY

 

[PaulThomson]

I guess you missed some of those posts. But the one who says people choose of their own free will without having been chosen first by God is still posting in this thread.

Some chose themselves and then became elect is their thinking.
Not sure how you missed all that. A whole thread was made on it.

And another was very clear that they did not need God's help in coming to believe.

Gosh, it is the crux of the convo.

What is that person saying they are choosing? Choosing themself of their own free will? or choosing Jesus of their own free will? You said they claim to choose themselves of thei own free will. Is your claim honest?.

 

[studier]

Hearing and pricking. The whole of man is corrupt...heart, mind, and will. When the heart is circumcised...pricked in the heart, the mind is renewed...they heard, and the will is affected...what shall we do?
They were then able to respond in faith.

So, when their heart was (more literally) stabbed/pierced this = the circumcision of their heart = the renewing of their mind then they could respond in faith?

So, per a recent post of yours, they could respond in faith because they were given faith? Would we thus put another = sign in the above string to include the gift of faith?

 

[selahsays]

I guess you missed some of those posts. But the one who says people choose of their
own free will without having been chosen first by God is still posting in this thread.

Some chose themselves and then became elect is their thinking.
Not sure how you missed all that. A whole thread was made on it.

Now that doesn’t even make any sense. If God has chosen an individual, that person will, without a doubt, run into the arms of Jesus upon hearing the Gospel. Why? Do you not know? It’s written; have you read it?

 

[studier]

Man can prick his own heart? Man possesses the ability to alter his most inward parts? Then why does God need to take out his heart of stone and provide a heart of flesh? One only needs this type of heart to live in the kingdom, but not to enter it?

No Scripture, so your suggestion still looks like an insertion.