Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[FollowerofShiloh]

I agree that it is not a complicated thing... An uncircumcised heart will not believe the gospel message because it is foolishness to them. The person in possession of an uncircumcised heart is a slave to sin, loves their sin, oppresses the truth in unrighteousness, being guided by worldly wisdom and not Godly wisdom, and does the will of the devil... ALWAYS resisting the Holy Spirit. Plain and simple, it is not the will of the devil that we submit to God and believe the gospel message. Jesus spoke of ear circumcision... Do you think that when Jesus mentioned those with ears to hear, that he was referencing some hitherto unmentioned fact that there are people who have no ears? Or that people who are born physically deaf have no chance of believing because they cannot hear? You keep associating these types of sayings to the physical when they regard matters of comprehension. God spoke of both ear and heart circumcision... heart circumcision was a promise given... do you think He reneged on that promise? Paul calls us the circumcision who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh. Do You think that if God circumcises a person's heart, that he has kidnapped them against their will, as others have said? Those who are uncircumcised in heart and ears are simply spiritually deaf and blind, and cannot understand Spiritual truth. It has been my understanding that you were brought up studying Jewish history and religion, but now it sounds like you may reject anything if Jesus didn't say it, even though it is the understanding of many that all of Scripture is given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. PS - I have never heard that rendition of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross before. Mostly I have seen it expressed as Paradise, which some take to mean heaven, even though Jesus did not ascend to the Father in heaven until after His resurrection.

Hearing the Gospel preached leads to believing. So hearing the Gospel is what opens the ears. 5 examples in the Bible where they heard and then Believed. That is what Jesus said in the 3 verses I provided. They hear and then decide what to do. So hearing opens the ears. Then after the ears are opened you can choose to accept or reject. We have 5 Bible examples of acceptance after hearing, 1 example where they heard and chose to stop hearing, and the verses of what Jesus said.

It perfectly harmonizes.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Umm.... the Gospel is truth, it is the story of Christ Jesus.

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” -Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith … Rom 1:16,17

Is the Spirit inspired and God breathed gospel that reveals the righteousness of God really the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes?

..........Or do these verses need to be changed to say “for it is the power of God for salvation only to those who God, before they hear it, regenerates them so they are able to understand the righteousness revealed in it, so they will then believe.”

So there needs there be some kind of extra grace that makes the grace of the gospel powerful enough to lead one to salvation?

I see no convincing evidence of this need in scripture.

If you do see it, is that because God has granted you a grace which makes you more capable of seeing truths revealed in scripture that He has kept from me and other believers?

Or could it simply be that we all have the same Gracious Revelation ( so that no one can boast) and any errors of interpretation or suppressing of its truth is because of our own temperaments and will.

The first sign of a False Doctrine is ignoring the verses that come before or after the "cherry picked" verse. Let's look at "Regeneration" a bit closer here.

4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Look at verse 7. The first 3 verses shows that God Regenerates all people. But verse 7 tells us it's not a guarantee everyone gets saved. Verse 7 clearly states " we might become heirs."

Might become does not mean will become.


So it goes back to what I have said in my previous 8 posts.
We HEAR and then we choose to accept or reject.
If we HEAR and accept, we will BECOME heirs.
If we HEAR and reject, we won't become heirs.

That's why Paul wrote, "we might become heirs."

 

[HeIsHere]

The first sign of a False Doctrine is ignoring the verses that come before or after the "cherry picked" verse. Let's look at "Regeneration" a bit closer here.

4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Look at verse 7. The first 3 verses shows that God Regenerates all people. But verse 7 tells us it's not a guarantee everyone gets saved. Verse 7 clearly states " we might become heirs."

Might become does not mean will become.


So it goes back to what I have said in my previous 8 posts.
We HEAR and then we choose to accept or reject.
If we HEAR and accept, we will BECOME heirs.
If we HEAR and reject, we won't become heirs.

That's why Paul wrote, "we might become heirs."

I agree.

Thank you for filling in the surrounding texts!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I agree.

Thank you for filling in the surrounding texts!

I am glad God allowed me to add them

 

[Cameron143]

Can you elaborate?

I heard the full gospel, in probably a 3 hour discussion, all at once perfectly presented.

I shared that it is the heart that is the wellspring of life. It is the source of our thoughts, words and deeds. I also explained that this is why the natural man is contrary to God continually. I also explained that God calls this contrariness evil.
It is this propensity of the natural man that causes him not to seek after God. He knows God exists through nature and conscience. But he is ill-disposed toward God.
In this estate, simply hearing the Gospel cannot produce salvation. Why? Because it is foolishness to him. His heart remains contrary to God. It's not that he can't understand the gospel, or his condition before God. His faculties work. The problem is that he is slave to his nature. He can't just suddenly change what he is. Thus, he can't just suddenly change how he responds.

I spent the better part of yesterday explaining all this. If you don't believe that the natural man is slave to his fallen nature, and what the estate of the natural man is, you will continue to see salvation as just a matter of man making a choice. But if that's the case, why pray for God to save someone? Wouldn't that mean God will have to override a person's choice? Why are you asking God to do something you say He never does, right?

If you pray for the salvation of others, and you believe God will never do anything to affect men's choices, you are either a hypocrite or you haven't given the matter enough thought.

 

[Cameron143]

The first sign of a False Doctrine is ignoring the verses that come before or after the "cherry picked" verse. Let's look at "Regeneration" a bit closer here.

4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Look at verse 7. The first 3 verses shows that God Regenerates all people. But verse 7 tells us it's not a guarantee everyone gets saved. Verse 7 clearly states " we might become heirs."

Might become does not mean will become.


So it goes back to what I have said in my previous 8 posts.
We HEAR and then we choose to accept or reject.
If we HEAR and accept, we will BECOME heirs.
If we HEAR and reject, we won't become heirs.

That's why Paul wrote, "we might become heirs."

Might there doesn't mean may or may not. It means it is made possible. Wow.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The coolest thing about Cornelius was he was a Gentile Proselyte. That means as a Gentile he made up his mind to follow the Law like the Jews did but Jews were born into doing it and Cornelius just made up his mind to do it. So he made a decision to be something he was not normally supposed to be. He """chose""" to follow God and the Law. And God sent an Angel to him and even said to Cornelius that his works and prayers were noticed.

And of course God sent Peter to him and he became a Christian.

But he shows us the same example as the Thief on the cross did. Just like John 3:16 reads [whosoever believes]. And as a Proselyte Gentile, Cornelius, did exactly that. He made up his mind to believe in God and follow God and God sent Peter along to help him receive the Holy Spirit.

Exactly and I like where we are reminded that God is no respecter of persons!! There are not elite with God! My grandmother always put it this way " we are all level at the foot of the cross".

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Not in the theology of Total Depravity.

Your trying to propose that someone who is totally depraved. Can by
magic perform even one fruit of the Holy Spirit. The only good work
is what Christ does through you.

You must be joking.

I assume that you understand that mankind always follows a path
of evil. They are not ever righteous. There can be no fruit of the Holy
Spirit in their lives, they crucified their creator.

There is a conflict taking place in your mind.

You know what Total Depravity really means but you cannot accept it.

No the Bible doesn't teach total depravity, as we just discussing with the verses about Cornelius and his family. They all responded to the Gospel that was preached to them. But the verses say that he was a "righteous man". They heard, the Holy Spirit moved, they believed, they were saved.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Might there doesn't mean may or may not. It means it is made possible. Wow.

Ahh, but you are using Erasmus who took the Latin back to Greek and to a different Greek because the koine Greek became extinct 1200 years before Erasmus had access to. And when we take Jerome's Greek to Latin we see how far off you actually are. But I am well aware from our debating that you use the Textus Receptus. I will continue to trust the facts here that I have already presented. Have a good evening

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Exactly and I like where we are reminded that God is no respecter of persons!! There are not elite with God! My grandmother always put it this way " we are all level at the foot of the cross".

Amen!
What You have posted is so true indeed

 

[Cameron143]

Ahh, but you are using Erasmus who took the Latin back to Greek and to a different Greek because the koine Greek became extinct 1200 years before Erasmus had access to. And when we take Jerome's Greek to Latin we see how far off you actually are. But I am well aware from our debating that you use the Textus Receptus. I will continue to trust the facts here that I have already presented. Have a good evening

I'm not using anything but the plain reading of the text.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I'm not using anything but the plain reading of the text.

From which Bible?

 

[Cameron143]

From which Bible?

I got it from your quotation. So whatever you were using.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I got it from your quotation. So whatever you were using.

I already gave the Greek meaning but you I guess are giving your own interpretation of the English composition of Might.
When all alone, the word "Might" means = "Strength - Champion - Mighty" in the Bible.
You claim it means = made possible.

But in this verse it's not all alone it's connected to complete phrase or action verb "Might Be."

"Might Be" in the Bible means = "used to express the possibility that something will happen or be done."


Now, I will meet you half way with "Made Possible" because it still does not mean it is going to or guaranteed to happen. Which depends up like Jesus said, those who hear will either accept or reject. Or using your term, those who hear have been made possible to accept or reject. But not a guarantee they will 100% be made heirs. It's possible they will be but not guaranteed they will be.

 

[Cameron143]

I already gave the Greek meaning but you I guess are giving your own interpretation of the English composition of Might.
When all alone, the word "Might" means = "Strength - Champion - Mighty" in the Bible.
You claim it means = made possible.

But in this verse it's not all alone it's connected to complete phrase or action verb "Might Be."

"Might Be" in the Bible means = "used to express the possibility that something will happen or be done."


Now, I will meet you half way with "Made Possible" because it still does not mean it is going to or guaranteed to happen. Which depends up like Jesus said, those who hear will either accept or reject. Or using your term, those who hear have been made possible to accept or reject. But not a guarantee they will 100% be made heirs. It's possible they will be but not guaranteed they will be.

The passage is talking about salvation, and what is being made known is how salvation has been made possible. It's not talking about any individual salvation but what God has done so that people could be saved. Might become heirs is just another way of saying salvation is made possible. How? By the grace of God coming to mankind.
It doesn't support predestination or freewill. It simply says the grace of God has made salvation possible.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The passage is talking about salvation, and what is being made known is how salvation has been made possible. It's not talking about any individual salvation but what God has done so that people could be saved. Might become heirs is just another way of saying salvation is made possible. How? By the grace of God coming to mankind.
It doesn't support predestination or freewill. It simply says the grace of God has made salvation possible.

God has either made a way or He has not and I know that He has.

So how the Holy Spirit has Paul write it clearly shows us this hinges upon acceptance or rejection.

If this was a set in stone it would say we will guaranteed become.

But we know God made a way and those who believe will become heirs. Therefore, might be indicates not everyone will become heirs. And since this is a Gift from God those who accept will become and those who reject will not become.

You can argue this as much as you like but it is not written in a guaranteed format anywhere. It's written that it can happen. So for it to happen is like Jesus has said multiple times by accepting or rejecting and based upon [whosoever BELIEVES].

 

[Mem]

There seems to be many that believe that it is impossible for them to be wrong but, yet, with God nothing is impossible.

 

[Cameron143]

God has either made a way or He has not and I know that He has.

So how the Holy Spirit has Paul write it clearly shows us this hinges upon acceptance or rejection.

If this was a set in stone it would say we will guaranteed become.

But we know God made a way and those who believe will become heirs. Therefore, might be indicates not everyone will become heirs. And since this is a Gift from God those who accept will become and those who reject will not become.

You can argue this as much as you like but it is not written in a guaranteed format anywhere. It's written that it can happen. So for it to happen is like Jesus has said multiple times by accepting or rejecting and based upon [whosoever BELIEVES].

I never said otherwise. I merely pointed out that the rendering of the verse was incorrect, and that that particular verse wasn't dealing with predestination or freewill.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I never said otherwise. I merely pointed out that the rendering of the verse was incorrect, and that that particular verse wasn't dealing with predestination or freewill.

It's dealing with anyone who might become an heir. It purposefully shows us it's not a guarantee and verse 8 shows Paul has been talking in verses 3 thru 8 about ""those who believe in God."" Hence me saying the reference to John 3:16 [Whosoever Believes].

If you Believe you are an heir.
If you do not believe you are not an heir.
Just like Jesus said about who hears and chooses to accept or reject.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

When the Gospel finally gets preached to the world, which it basically already has been. We have statistics that show 2.5 Billion have accepted and the rest have rejected it. But everyone get's to hear and choose for themselves like Jesus said.

That is why Paul wrote the verse using the phrase...might be or like I agree with you on made possible to.