Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[maxamir]

you can't see beyond this seeming impossible conundrum because ....

because you have chosen to learn these doctrines from men, good men, I think Calvin is a brilliant theologian, Spurgeon is beloved to me. Yet when I read that God predestined men to be damned I sought God and cried for understanding.

God will teach me as readily as He will teach Calvin or Spurgeon. But Calvin never asked God, that's right. He was caught on the hop by one of his students who put the case to him in a question "If God has predestined us to saved and others are not saved, doesn't that mean God has predestined to damn them"

Calvin was stunned, he hesitated a long time thinking about it before reluctantly acknowledging that it must be true.

It has only ever been a supposition based upon pure human logic. The scripture is silent and Calvin's greater wisdom would have been to stay silent too. But he was on the spot.

God does not work according to human logic.

to deny that God ordains all things including the salvation of His elect by way of His grace and the damnation of the wicked by way of their sin unto His greater glory is a denial of the plain truth of Holy Scripture and you seek to deny this because it does not fit into your Amyraldian point of view which proposes a hypothetical universalism based upon a false assumption that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to save every person who believes without realising that not all are given belief to be saved.

 

[maxamir]

That is mantalk.

The scripture you began to quote but veered off into commentary goes on to say it is impossible for God to be tempted of evil neither tempts He any man.

Indeed, no man is tempted by God as James confirms below.

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

but Christ confirmed in His example of prayer to pray to the Father not to lead us into temptation which means not to hand us over to our lusts to fall into temptation which God does often to chasten His children and also to the greater deamination of the wicked.

The word reprobate which Scripture uses does not fit into your inconsistent theological view because you have been persuaded by the man-centred false gospel which prevails over the world today in judgement that God loves everyone, even those He casts into Hell and sincerely desires to save all because they all supposedly still bear the image and likeness of God and therefore deny the doctrine of original sin and with it the foundation of the Gospel.

Was Pink wrong below?

 

[maxamir]

So are you under Moses and the law? no that was the old dispensation.

Paul recognised Israel in his day, he says that a veil covers their eyes from seeing Christ whenever Moses is read until the veil is removed. He makes it perfectly plain that the blindness is only partial and temporary. The Jews who are now cast away will be received ... all Israel will be saved.

Paul also said that not all Israel is Israel meaning that only the remnant among Israel will be saved which are those not circumcised of the flesh but of the heart who are the true seed of Abraham regardless of nationality. God saves by grace and not by race!

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The only true Jew today is he who is a born again Christian of the New Covenant. All those who claim to be so today without Christ are as Christ twice confirmed, imposters of the Synagogue of Satan (Rev 2:9, 3:9).

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

You don't think that we're all misunderstanding each other, in this Thread?

We seem to be going around in circles!

 

[Mem]

Who wanted what? Because Somebody wanted something, and some others did not want it. At all.
Of course you could argue that everybody got thrown in the lake of fire dumpster whether they wanted it or not.
But that, of course, would be blasphemy.

Mat 11:21
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

God wants repentance, I don't think anyone could argue that. As is typical of google, a quick search of the "sign of Jonah" returned a wikipedia entry. It stated, "The sign of Jonah has different meanings in Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism, the story represents the teaching of teshuva, which is the ability to repent and be forgiven by God." It seems to me the ability to repent is inherent in the people Nineveh even if the idea didn't originate from them and they had to have a messenger come to them saying, "repent!" In their case, it was Jonah.

However, Jesus is greater than Jonah so, how much should we put our goats in sackcloth and ashes (not God requires that) to display our repentance. I might not remember it correctly but, I don't recall God asking them for that, putting their animals in sackcloth and ashes that is, so they went through a lot of trouble to make sure God noticed how repentant they were. They showed the extent of their belief in God's forgiveness, and were not disappointed, even though Jonah was, because He believed as much.

 

[Mem]

It's always something within us that stops the intentions of God in our own personal lives. Even with Satan it was "Pride."

Pride gets in the way of repentance, yes, since humility is built into it.

 

[fredoheaven]

Man acts according to the condition of his heart. Matthew 12:34...out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. The natural heart finds the things of God to be foolish. He neither seeks after God or responds in faith apart from an enabling of God. He is at enmity with God. Salvation requires faith, and faith requires both the word of God and the Spirit of God.
Until the nature of the natural man is altered, he remains helpless. Hence, the necessity of salvation by grace.

Good one but I think Matthew 12:34 has nothing to do with faith. It’s about the fruit. It’s man's nature to talk things against the will of God. God would certainly not enable him for he was nothing yet. The Holy Spirit and the gospel work rather to convict and declare God’s offer of salvation thus man needs to repent and receive God’s plan of salvation. “Whosoever” which sets the condition in the salvation plan and offer means to either receive or reject, believe or will not believe. I don’t think salvation is an achievement that it requires something. The Holy Spirit and the word of God are indeed instruments but only to pronounce someone guilty and the other to provide a way of salvation yet they cannot force anyone. But what remains is that the “…gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth…” Romans 1:16 yet not everyone presented with the gospel believes and that would make a person’s choice.

Alteration or change of the natural man is already the product and is not the cause. Hence, salvation is by grace through faith.

 

[fredoheaven]

to deny that God ordains all things including the salvation of His elect by way of His grace and the damnation of the wicked by way of their sin unto His greater glory is a denial of the plain truth of Holy Scripture and you seek to deny this because it does not fit into your Amyraldian point of view which proposes a hypothetical universalism based upon a false assumption that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to save every person who believes without realising that not all are given belief to be saved.

View attachment 264428

Your verse on this, please. Thank you

 

[Evmur]

Paul also said that not all Israel is Israel meaning that only the remnant among Israel will be saved which are those not circumcised of the flesh but of the heart who are the true seed of Abraham regardless of nationality. God saves by grace and not by race!

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The only true Jew today is he who is a born again Christian of the New Covenant. All those who claim to be so today without Christ are as Christ twice confirmed, imposters of the Synagogue of Satan (Rev 2:9, 3:9).

They will be.

God does not deal with Israel as He does with us. He deals with them as a nation. They fell as a nation and they will rise as a nation.
They will look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him and God will pour upon them a spirit of compassion and of supplication and the whole nation will pray. Zechariah.

Are YOU elect? can you lose your election? If God can renege on Israel He might renege on you ... not thinkable.

They are enemies of the gospel for our sakes but as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the father's sake for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. It is the enemies who God calls beloved, not the remnant.

God said to Abe "look at the stars innumerable, so shall your seed"

"look at the sand of the sea shore innumerable, so shall your seed be" There you have it the heavenly seed and the earthly seed, the natural seed have promises made to them which do not belong to the church, the ends of the earth as a possession. We are the heavenly seed and heaven is our long-time home.

 

[Evmur]

Indeed, no man is tempted by God as James confirms below.

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

but Christ confirmed in His example of prayer to pray to the Father not to lead us into temptation which means not to hand us over to our lusts to fall into temptation which God does often to chasten His children and also to the greater deamination of the wicked.

The word reprobate which Scripture uses does not fit into your inconsistent theological view because you have been persuaded by the man-centred false gospel which prevails over the world today in judgement that God loves everyone, even those He casts into Hell and sincerely desires to save all because they all supposedly still bear the image and likeness of God and therefore deny the doctrine of original sin and with it the foundation of the Gospel.

Was Pink wrong below?

View attachment 264429

in other words God does not tempt us ... but really He does. God you say is in league with the devil, they work side by side.

God has no truc with sin or the devil. Get THAT wrong and you get the gospel wrong.

 

[Evmur]

to deny that God ordains all things including the salvation of His elect by way of His grace and the damnation of the wicked by way of their sin unto His greater glory is a denial of the plain truth of Holy Scripture and you seek to deny this because it does not fit into your Amyraldian point of view which proposes a hypothetical universalism based upon a false assumption that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to save every person who believes without realising that not all are given belief to be saved.

View attachment 264428

The church is an predestinated and elect people to become the body of Christ. All others will be judged with equity.

If you think the sheep of Matthew 25 are the church you transgress your own theology for they are judged by their works.

 

[selahsays]

because you have chosen to learn these doctrines from men, good men, I think Calvin is a brilliant theologian, Spurgeon is beloved to me. Yet when I read that God predestined men to be damned I sought God and cried for understanding.

Hey, wait a second. Let’s consider this: Everyone has free will. We all must choose at some point. I don’t believe God has ever predestined anyone to be damned. Yes, some were chosen by God before the foundation of the world because they loved God (they chose God then), and these He called. Let’s read it again in Romans 8:29:
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God (free will), to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

….but God did not damn the others that did not love Him before the foundation of the world. Instead, because He loved the world so much, He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever would believe in Him (free will) should not perish but have eternal life, too. The only folks who will be damned are the unbelievers. What does John 3:16 say again?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

…selah

 

[Evmur]

the deal has already been sealed in Christ and proof of that is found in those who by grace alone, gratefully obey and endure to the end.

Did Christ die for those in Hell?

gratefully obey eh? endure to the end ... so they are saved by works after all.

I think Christ having given the promise [everlasting life] and we having given the amen and being sealed in the Holy Ghost we will be saved no matter what.

 

[Evmur]

Hey, wait a second. Let’s consider this: Everyone has free will. We all must choose at some point. I don’t believe God has ever predestined anyone to be damned. Yes, some were chosen by God before the foundation of the world because they loved God (they chose God then), and these He called. Let’s read it again in Romans 8:29:
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God (free will), to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

….but God did not damn the others that did not love Him before the foundation of the world. Instead, because He loved the world so much, He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever would believe in Him (free will) should not perish but have eternal life, too. The only folks who will be damned are the unbelievers. What does John 3:16 say again?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

…selah

we chose before the foundation of the world? we loved God? John says "not that we loved God but He loved us..."

Even now our love is a poor flickering thing. We RECEIVE His love, He pours it into our hearts by the Holy Ghost.

There is no predestination unto damnation in the bible.

 

[selahsays]

we chose before the foundation of the world? we loved God? John says "not that we loved God but He loved us..."

Even now our love is a poor flickering thing. We RECEIVE His love, He pours it into our hearts by the Holy Ghost.

There is no predestination unto damnation in the bible.

There is no one predestined by God for damnation.

…and Yes, that’s why, for example, God chose and ordained Jeremiah as a prophet. God knew him and chose Jeremiah before the foundation of the world.
Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

- Jeremiah 1:4-7 (KJV)

 

[Evmur]

Hello Evmur.

Israel have been grafted out for two thousand years!

Are you saying that all those Jews that did not believe, for two thousand
years are saved?

Let's look at that

Daniel 12 speaks about the great tribulation and the mighty Cherub Michael who stands up for Israel at that time and it speaks about the resurrection of all Israel some to everlasting righteousness some to shame and contempt. It's THERE in Daniel 12 The Jews are to be resurrected with the church. We go to meet the Lord in the clouds of glory, the Jews go into the Millennial kingdom there to turn many unto righteousness.

Did you see what Jesus told Caiphas? He said "you will not see Me again until you say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"

"They will look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a first born son"

Israel is not grafted out of the olive, they are the olive, some branches have been grafted out and we grafted in.

 

[Evmur]

Yes, that’s why, for example, God chose and ordained Jeremiah as a prophet. God knew him and chose Jeremiah before the foundation of the world.
Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

- Jeremiah 1:4-7 (KJV)

but to many who come saying "Lord Lord" in that day He will say "depart from Me ye workers of iniquity for I NEVER knew thee"

 

[selahsays]

but to many who come saying "Lord Lord" in that day He will say "depart from Me ye workers of iniquity for I NEVER knew thee"

Those are the unbelievers in John 3:16-18.

 

[Evmur]

So every convert, being restored, now feels and thinks and behaves the same way unfallen Adam did?
And again......was permission for this restoration asked for and then granted? Or was God hogtying their will and carting them off to the marriage whether they like it or not?

Or was it more like somebody was kidnapped and added to the Borg collective?

Anyways......good luck selling that idea.

and yet that is exactly what Jesus said ... "go quickly to the highways and hedges whoever ye find there good or bad and COMPEL them to come"

 

[selahsays]

and yet that is exactly what Jesus said ... "go quickly to the highways and hedges whoever ye find there good or bad and COMPEL them to come"

Amen!
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

- 2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)